Munzurul Khan is back on The SPI Show this week, providing all his top tips for investors looking to get the most from their accountants.
Host Phil Tarrant grills his financial team on what investors should be looking out for in their accountants, why it’s important you find a support team who share your interests and how to be an S.M.A.R.T. investor.
All this and much, much more on this episode of The Smart Property Investment Show.
Tune in now!
Phil: Good day everyone, welcome to the Smart Property Investment Show. Thanks for tuning in. We're going to continue a little bit on from a chat we had about three or four weeks ago when I asked my accountant, Munzurul Khan, into the studio to talk about our property portfolio and how we have grown it over time. Make sure you go back and listen to that episode. I think it was about number 49 by memory or thereabouts, but just search on iTunes and Soundcloud and you'll be able to track it down. We tagged it as a special episode because it went for about 40 minutes or so, which is twice as long as what we normally do. A lot of people have written in asking more questions about my portfolio, and I promise that we will cover them off at a point in time very soon. As you all know we're going through a bit of a buying process right now, so it'll be all intertwined within that.
I've also asked Michael Johnson back onto the show, and Michael works with me on helping to manage my portfolio, he's within our finance team but I've tasked him with being a real administrative source for me to make things happen, and allows me to concentrate on making opportunities knowing that a lot of the functionality of the portfolio is happening. I was just chatting to Munzurul the other night about how we can prepare for this particular podcast, and I sort of asked him to just give me a bit of an idea about his client base. Munzurul, as you'll know if you've listened to the podcast we did a little bit recently, is a property investor himself and has a sizable portfolio. He's been at it for about 16 years or so I think by memory. He works very closely with investors, and Munzurul's a very good accountant, both from a commercial perspective for people running businesses, but also from the perspective or the angle of for property investors.
A lot of property investors are business owners so they understand the importance and the power of a good accountant. A lot of investors aren't business owners so they might be quite new to some of the structures and processes that accountants undertake. Choosing the right accountant is absolutely key. My point would be that you find an accountant who is a property investor and actually understands it intimately, it practicing it themselves every single day because they're going to know exactly the best ways in which that you can not only structure your portfolio, maximize it's effectiveness from a financial position, but also give you some greater clout and clarity around goal setting.
I asked Munzurul to just give me a bit of a synopsis of his client base, and he wrote some stuff down for me which I think is really good. It highlights the diversity of investors in Australia. I remember when the budget was on this year back in May, and everyone was screaming about negative gearing getting canned. I can't remember who it was, I think it was the federal treasurer pulled out a stat that one in four police people were property investors, and they were benefiting from negative gearing. I think that highlighted to a lot of people that it's just not, and I use air quotation mark, "The rich" who are property investors, it's everyday Australians. I think this list that you've put together for me, Munzurul, is really reflective of that. Mate, firstly welcome back to the show.
Munzurul: Thank you very much.
Phil: Michael, good to see you again mate.
Phil: Munzurul, I'm just going to bang through this. This is his real quick synopsis, and he's done it very succinctly which I like, and it's obviously the mind of an accountant. You wouldn't make a journalist, mate, with flowing language. He's just gone, "An old retired investor. Someone single. Another person, past bad advice. Another person, off the plan. Another person, billionaire investor." Wouldn't we all want to be them? "Another point, bad to great. Another person, self made. Another person, granny flat builder. Another person, so much potential. Another person, very nominal income. Another person, analysis versus paralysis. Another person, working out the trouble. Another person, cash flow in regional is an illusion. Another person, stuck. Another person, late investor in retirement. Another person, continuous learning." Et cetera, et cetera. I think what that does, Munzurul, it just paints a very diverse picture of your client base, and the average profile of an investor in Australia.
Munzurul: Mate, absolutely, it's absolutely been privilege for last number of years that we've been with many investors. If I look back into my investor portfolio, our investors will range all the way from mum and dad investors buying their first investment property, to all the way to 100 plus investment properties. We'll have institutional investors, we'll have residential investors, we'll have investor who would never buy any residential properties just pure commercial property, I would have investors who would never buy any commercial property, it's pure residential property. I'd have investors who would only buy a metro sort of a property, only buy a city oriented property, only buy perhaps some regional property. I had an investor who recently came it where the investor only buy NRS properties as such.
I've got an investor who's got a whole bunch of properties and all of his portfolios are in one suburb in Sydney, and he's done very well because he's bought it over a number of years. At the same time I've got investors who are quite creative, I've got investors who buy, renovate, hold, I've got investors who buy, renovate, sell. I've got investors who are more, are they really investor or more business oriented as such. It's quite varied, it's the passion in Australia, the great Australian dream, and the dream expands into the investment properties as well.
Phil: When you look at the people who you support, and let's be clear, people pay you a fee for advice. You're an accountant, so these people are your clients, so everyone needs to file a tax return with the tax office from a personal level every single year, and property investors, as part of that, if they're investing in their own names, that will be part of it. If they're investing by trust it will be a business orientated relationship with that. Your clients pay you a fee for service, I think they're probably quite smart because I think you're a good accountant. Outside of that, the diversity of investors that you provide services for, do you pigeonhole people?
I don't know if it's probably the right question to ask you because it might give the way you see the world, but did you pigeonhole investors? Do you sort of say, "That's a really good investor that I like working with because they get it and they're easy to deal with." Versus people who are like, it takes so much more work to deal with these people and they're quite difficult to deal with. I know that you probably like that because you like the education side and I think that's important. How do you frame investment and people from a property investment perspective?
Munzurul: Mate absolutely brilliant, brilliant question, and the reason I say absolutely brilliant question, it's one of those things that we remind ourselves on a continuous basis, it's not my perspective. It is you, as a client, as your perspective. What that means is that in the first meeting when we sit down with any of the taxpayers, any of the prospective clients, any of the clients as such, we sit down and we say that while we are accountants, we're not financial advisors so we can't give you financial advice as such, we only give you the tax and accounting advice, I can share stories of what I've done. A couple of my clients what they have done without their name as such, but it's the accounting advice right? In the first meeting I always go with an absolutely fresh perspective with nothing in my mind, and I say that very often is that my mind will be directed the way you want it to be directed.
We asked a simple question such as exactly where you are financially? What are your assets? What are your liabilities? What are your income? What are your expenses? What are your contingent liability? What are your respective level of benefit that you might have received from somewhere? We get overall an idea of what your asset, and liability, and income, and expense. Then we ask the question that, what are the goals and objectives? Why are you here? What are the things that you wish to do? What are the SMART goals? Specific, Measurable, Achievable, Realistic, Timely. What do you wish to do? Once I get to know that this is what you wish to do, and this is where you are, that's where we do a bit of brainstorming, saying that, "Well perhaps we can do this, perhaps we can do this, perhaps we can do this."
Where I see, Phil, the role of an accountant, the role of an accountant is not necessarily to say that you must do this, you must not do this. The role of an accountant is more of an information resource center. The role of an accountant is to say, "Well if you do this, these are the positive, these are the negative. If you do this, these are the positive, these are the negatives." At the same time we say that very often to the client that my role is to give you as much as I can, you pick and choose what suits you. Some of the things we may have said, "That makes no sense." We'll set that aside. Some of the things we may have said, "Well, I'll think about it." Some of the things that you say that, "You know what? Absolutely, we'll do it." No, no, we're very, very, very open. The reason why we're very open and work with absolutely wide variety of taxpayers and investors because there is a bit to learn from every single person as such.
Phil: One of the genesis of Smart Property Investment, and now the Smart Property Investment Show was, I'm a journalist and a bit of a cynic. I question why, it's in my nature. When I was looking at property investment and I saw a lot of the get rich stories in property investment, and, "How I made a million dollars overnight." And buy in regional towns because you can be an instant cash-flow, and whatever. I just went, something doesn't smell right, Munzurul. I thought something doesn't smell right because you only ever hear the positive stories. You only hear the stories which are often somehow connected with someone who's trying to spruke something, and by spruke I mean trying to flog you something. Often I didn't believe a lot of the stuff that I was hearing or seeing, so one of the reasons behind the show and the podcast is to talk openly about property. I'm happy to share my story as a property investor with the portfolio that I've created for Smart Property Investment.
Through that we've become a good client of yours, and I do lean on you for your support, but this big list of people who you've got here and your summation of who they are, I put next to my name, hard word. I put a little asterisks, hard work. By hard work I mean I'm probably a good client, but I'm probably a challenging client as well because I probably don't move as fast as what I could do, and therefore there's missed opportunity cost. We spoke about that in the last podcast that we did. As an investor I've evolved and become more mature in my ability to be a better investor, and that's something I always strive towards, how to become a better investor.
Part of that process was Michael supporting me from an operational perspective of getting stuff done, so it gives me the capacity to do more stuff. That's key. I could concentrate on the high value stuff, and Michael can concentrate on making sure that things are getting done at the right period of time. Am I a hard work client? What I'm trying to do here is trying to have a bit of a perception of self-awareness. Am I hard client, number one. Number two, how do other people actually understand whether or not they're the sort of client that an accountant, and/or a buyers agent, and/or a mortgage broker would want to have. How do you be a good client essentially? It's very philosophical this.
Munzurul: That's very philosophical, and the question that you asked that are you a hard client? The answer is no, and the reason why the answer is no is that it's not so much in terms of me, what I consider about yourself, it's me to put myself into your perspective. I know that you do want to have investments, I know that you do want to expand your portfolio, but at the same time I do also understand that you've got a whole lot of other business affairs as such, you've got a whole lot of other priorities as such. What I see my role is, my role is that consistently stay with you along the way. Without, I suppose, invasion as such, but consistently stay with you and at the same time to make you achieve which in your own mind that you want to achieve, but perhaps sometimes it doesn't happen.
A common thing that I see all the time, all the time, all the time, is that the business entrepreneur and the leader of a group, and I'll say that very often, "When you are the business entrepreneur, you are the ultimate leader as such. Do you look after yourself as much as you look after the entire organization as such?" With the risk of being quite generic, very often is that business owners, they themselves put them as the lower priority is the entire business and everything else comes in as the high priority. This is where my role is, my role is to come in and say that, "Well you business is important, of course it's important.: It gives it a cash-flow, it keeps it running, and all the rest of it. It's exciting, brilliant. We make the deals as such.
Nonetheless, those business are only running as long as you are running. Whereas your investment properties are the one which are your ultimate aim, your asset base, your wealth is your ultimate aim because that is the wealth which will consistently ... Assuming that we buy the right level of investment with the right level of structure, and right level or areas, and so forth. Those are the ones which will consistently grow over a period of time. The way that I see it in a visual way is that your business, while it is brilliant, it's the short term cash-flow with the ultimate aim of that investment in a longer period of time. It's not you, it's many business entrepreneur. You know what? Me, I'm exactly on the same shoe. I'll look after everyone else tax return, and my own tax return, I always do it at the very last day. I remember last year I've lodged my return at about 11:50 at night on the night when it was due. I think we are all guilty.
Phil: Yeah, we are all guilty. It is philosophical, but the classic question I could ask you, Munzurul, is how do I find the right accountant? You just Google it, right? Smartpropertyinvestment.com.au will come up where we say, "Here are the points that you need to think about when you're assessing whether or not X accountant is the right accountant for you and your property investment." What I'm doing is flipping that around saying as a property investor, shaping the way you view property investment, shaping the way in which you think an accountant or the role that an accountant should play, how can you be a better investor by thinking differently about the accountant and the role that they play? A point I would make under that thesis is around goal setting. I know whenever we catch up, one of the first conversations we have is generally a rehash on goal setting, and you'll try and keep me accountable on the goals that I've created based on dialogue I have had with you.
You haven't told me, "Phil, these are your goals. Go away and do it." It's, "I realized or rationalized these goals. You've helped me realize what they are." Then we will reflect on those goals and perhaps shape them into the future. Me, as a property investor, one of the big steps was how could I get my accountant to add greater value to me, outside of the fact of he does my tax return. I don't think a lot of investors thing that way. Is that a fair ...
Munzurul: Absolutely, absolutely. Absolutely it's a very, very, very fair question because what is the right accountant? Who is the right accountant? I mean the question by itself I suppose perhaps whether it's relative. The comments which comes into my mind is that an accountant, number one, that you speak to. Number two, that you can relate to. More importantly an accountant who is experienced. Yes, of course technical experience with all the tax rules and it's being given its need to be there, but an accountant who to some extent is specialized into an area of your interest. Me, as an example, is that if you ask me about shares and debentures and rights, and all this exciting thing, I would say, "Phil, I listen to Peter [Sutser 00:15:46] every night, but I don't have any knowledge." I don't have any practical knowledge because I don't do that. You need to find the right accountant in your investment journey as such.
You also need to find the accountant who's passionate about it, so is not just doing it. It's that he's doing it, he's in there, his own gains are in there, and he's passionate about it, and the accountant is genuine I suppose. As long as you have all of those, and as long as the open communication is there from your end, that this is what I'm expecting, and from accountants point of view strategic feedback as well is that your previous question, that how do I become a better client.
As long as that's a dual bit of the communication I suppose is there, so the accountants communication could be is that, "Well you need to have the appropriate level of substantiation, you need to have all of your documentation, you need to make sure the summaries are being prepared." From your point of view I suppose, as an investor, is that, "Well you as an accountant, you need to be accessible, you need to be open-minded, and you don't have to have your own prejudice and experience as such." As long as that open communication is there, and the practical experience is there, as well as the experience is there, I think that's the right accountant.
Phil: This is very philosophical. We haven't really spoke about this beforehand, but I'm quite happy to frame a conversation in this way. Is it incumbent on the accountant to evolve the sophistication of the investor, or is it incumbent on the investor to make sure that they find an accountant who can do that?
Munzurul: I think it's both, and I think it's a continuous journey. I think it's been continuous learning as well. I think it's about being privileged, from my point of view is that when I sit down with every single investor, whether it is someone who's 21 years old, or someone who has done it, and done it as a generation wise. I take that not as being given, I take that as being a privilege. I enjoy that bit of the journey, and I enjoy a little bit of what you've done, how you've done it, and this, this, this as such. From client's perspective as well, that while your accountant may be many years of experience and so forth, but still keep the accountant accountable. Challenge him the question.
I've got this doctor client as an example. The doctor client came in and in day one, I still remember that I sat down with a gentleman and I said, "I love getting challenges, so ask me any difficult question and I may not know the answer." Very often I would not know the answer. The more I don't know the answer the better it is. I'll go back and do the research and come back with the answer. The only challenge is this gentleman since then he's going out there, doing all the research, and asking the more crazy questions.
Phil: Doctors are that way. In terms of your skillset as an investor ... I would call myself reasonably financial literate, that's a product of running a business. I'm able to look at my portfolio like I would like at business financials. I imagine going through this type of clients that you have from single mother, or new to the game, or structured utilizer, whatever. How would you grade the sophistication of your average property investor, question number one. Number two, what are the good investors doing to be better at understanding the financial components of running a property investment portfolio?
Munzurul: We don't grade the investors, and don't grade the investors in the sense that each investor is unique. How many times that I've seen from an investors point of view, that investor just has started with a mum and dad sort of investor. Before you know it the investor has 10, 15, 20 properties as such. How many times that I sat down with an investor, the investor by himself could be at a basic level, at a starting level. Before we know it the investor brings in another big sort of an investor. We keep the mind open I suppose in terms of the grading side of it, or the investor side of it. How does an investor become more substigated over a period of time, it's the learning. It's the continuous learning, it's the continuous learning, it's the continuous learning, it's the continuous learning. It's about listening to everything in the modern world, it's about keeping your mind open, it's about different perspective.
A common thing which I say very first time when I meet someone in our office, the very first thing that I say that, "If there is one thing that you take out of our meeting today, is that life is that your continuous learning and continuous journey. Go and read the book." I share the experience that when I started reading all these property books, I read the first two or three and I thought, "You know what? I've read the first couple, I've read a couple of Jan Somers book, and I read the Richest Man in Babylon, and a couple of books." I was like I knew everything. I was pretty comfortable. Then I was like, "All right, I'll read a few more books." Then I read another four or five books and I was like, "Hang on, I'm confused. Everyone does it in a little bit different way." You've got someone else who's just building and constructing, you've got someone else who are buy and hold, you've got someone else who are all about repairs and maintenance. Everyone is a little bit different.
The comment had been there is that you continue that bit of the journey. When you are confused that means you are in the right track, you continue reading, and reading, and reading, and reading. Once you read, once you listen, once you read more, you would reach into your own journey, saying that this is where, I suppose, we want to.
Phil: Top education resources outside of the Smart Property Investment Podcast? Jan Somers, books, classic?
Munzurul: Definitely. If there is one book that I read, I suppose is the Richest Man in Babylon, that I found. It's a book where there are knowledge within the knowledge. You read it for the first time and you sort of understand-
Phil: It's like a parable, isn't it?
Munzurul: It is. You read it for the first time and you sort of say, "Well, it's all common sense." It is all common sense, and that's the beauty of that knowledge, that it is all common sense. More you read, if you read second time, and third time, and fourth time, that's where the knowledge expands. Then there is the whole lot of other authors. You look through Michael Yardney, Steve McKnight.
Phil: Margaret Lomas' stuff is very good.
Munzurul: Yeah, so there is Margaret Lomas. There's a whole lot of books, and a whole lot of books from Margaret Lomas as well. There's a whole lot of magazines, and mainly the Smart Property Investment.
Phil: That's good, Munzurul, that's good. Do you reckon, Michael, you're a recent accounting graduate, are they teaching accountants at university this sort of stuff?
Michael: No, definitely not.
Phil: Do you think they should?
Michael: I think they should. I think you do get a brief introduction to trusts and those sort of structures, but nothing to the level that I've been exposed to here. I think it's really important when people get into this sort of thing is you sit down and you actually learn, as Munzurul was saying. I've learnt an incredible amount of knowledge over the past year, A. by just listening to conversations, as this conversation here, I'm learning so much as we go along. I think it's really important just to, again, just take a step back and really just soak it all in because there's so much complexity. At the end of the day though, if you're just paying attention, it's not that hard, it's quite simple. When you look at it from the outside there's a lot of information, so I think it's just really important to take a step back from all that and just really pay attention.
Phil: I think the point, and this is what you were alluding to, is if you're choosing an accountant ... Let's stay on the theme, how does an investor find the right accountant? It's a blend of hard and soft skills, right? The hard skills is what you would expect an accountant to do, and that is to give you good advice around the stuff that they can give you advice on, and that's tax compliance, all this sort of stuff. Then it's the soft skills, so being able to build rapport, have a dialogue, have some level of connection which makes it a pleasure to be able to work with your accountant, so you can achieve those goals that you realize. We spoke really quickly about goal setting beforehand, Munzurul, let's just drill down on that because we're running out of time really quickly. How do you set goals? Why have goals, and then why do you set them? Why have goals, how do you set them?
Munzurul: I'm a strong believer of saying that the energy that we have are quite unlimited of all of us. It's about how do we divert that bit of energy with a very specific goal as such. Very often the success comes in because of that mindset. It's your mind. You build that bit of wealth in your mind before it becomes crystallized, I suppose, in the open world. Goal setting is very important for a number of reason. Goal setting is very important because I say that very often some people, very often they are not as successful because they are not very clear in their own mind what they want to achieve. They've got a whole lot of diversity of different options. That's why I'm a big, big, big fan saying that you set up your goal. It's not an accountant to set up a goal, accountant will facilitate you at setting up your goal, but you as a client, you set up your own goal with your personal circumstances.
I'm a big fan of setting SMART goals, right? Specific, Measurable, Achievable, Realistic, Timely. What is your goal? What do you wish to achieve? I ask that question all the time, and I hear that from clients, "I would like to go on two holidays once in every year, and would like to retire in the next two years." Then I sort of say, "All those good, let's try to quantify what does that mean?" What does that mean in terms of your net passive income that you need to reach into that bit of the lifestyle that you wish to. What's the overall gross asset I suppose you need to achieve it to reach into that bit of the net, the ongoing positive cash flow as such. What's the time frame that you would like to achieve?
Then we discuss a little bit is it really realistic as such? Once we set up those goals, then it is very important that, in my view, is that you write down the goals. I use that analogy, that write down the goals, leave it somewhere where the goals stare at you, you can't hide away the goals. From my point of view as an example I do yearly goals, and I leave them in my office. Once in a while I look at it and realise I’d better run a bit quicker. It makes you more accountable in terms of the goals. You write it down, you make it specific. Don't make it overly complicated.
I sit down with people who has got about 25 goals, then it becomes almost that many goals that he can't remember what those goals are. Maybe about five goals, maybe about seven goals. Build a yearly goal, and build a longer term goal, and on a very consistent basis go back to that goal over and over. Track it down, accountability, how are you achieving those goals? Then once you have done it you look back and you say, "Well enormous what I've achieved, and I've achieved simply because I focused my energy."
Phil: We had a young guy on the show a month or so ago now, probably episode 45 maybe, check it out. I think he'd invested a lot of time in reading self-empowerment type books, that sort of education, YouTube stuff. He was a sales person as well, so he was a really, really good podcast guest. He was a talented bloke and he had a really good story. Every morning when he woke up he wrote his goal down on a piece of paper, and then every night before he went to sleep he wrote his goal down on a piece of paper. He's only 28 years old this guy. I asked him what are you goals about? He said they were mainly financially orientated. They weren't family goals or whatever because he's a young bloke, I think he's single.
He was so religious about his goal setting that every night before he went to bed, and every morning when he woke up, just to frame him correctly. He was a property investor, had six properties in two years or something. I think that was a really good point, and very much maybe that's a bit overkill, but it works for him. The whole idea of writing your goals down and reassessing and refining them, because whatever it takes to keep you driven.
Munzurul: It's about driving yourself a little bit faster, right? It's about driving yourself a little bit faster but at the same time it's about having a little bit of fun as well along the way. The goals that you create, it's not about someone else goal, not about someone else, not about someone else goals. It's your goals, and it's not a race with anyone else. It's a race within yourself. It's about taking a step back saying that, you know what, two things. One is that I have achieved the best that I could have done with my life, and at the same time I had lots of fun as well.
Phil: We've got to finish up, I'm getting a wind up from Adam now, our producer here. I got three things here, real tangibly I want like a 20 second response from you, Munzurul, you only get 20 seconds. This is staying on the thing about your accountant, right? How often should you speak to them?
Munzurul: On an ongoing basis.
Phil: How often should you see them face to face?
Munzurul: Depending on the volume, at a bare minimum on a quarterly basis.
Phil: How much should you pay them? How do you know if you're getting robbed? A lot of people will switch accountants because they think they're paying too much. I don't want you to tell me how much you charge me or any, but how do you work it out?
Munzurul: Ideally you should be sitting down with your accountant and receive a fixed cost indication with quite clear identity of what you're expecting with the accountant. In our case we always do that. If that fixed cost is being provided then there is no a fee negotiation. Be fair to the accountant as the accountant will be fair to yourself in a ideal world. Many accountants they charge on an hourly basis, and then ask them, "What's the hourly basis that you are charging, and when you're charging, and how you are charging?" It's about making it fair from both ends.
Phil: We're on a fixed cost thing with you and that was when we sat down you said, "Phil, here's all the things I'm going to do, and here's all the things associated with it, and this is how much it's going to cost you." I went, "That's fine, that's cool." That's the basis that we work on, and that works quite well, but there's also other ways you can do it. I guess this comes down to the last part of this line of questioning, how do you know whether or not your accountant is adding value to you?
Munzurul: Good question. How do you know where an accountant is adding value? Ask question around and see that what else other accountants are achieving, and challenge your accountant a bit, that, "I've heard this, I've read this, I've done this." He would fill it along the way.
Phil: Good. Thanks Munzurul, I've really enjoyed your insights, mate.
Munzurul: Thank you very much.
Phil: You're going to have to come back. Our new regular guest on the show, Munzurul, looking after all things finance. Really good mate. For our listeners, any questions around accounting, it can be as boring as talking about the specifics of trust structures, through to the more interesting stuff like goal setting. Please contact me, [email protected] if there's anything specifically for Munzurul send it over to me and I'll flick it over to him and give you an intro. Michael, thanks mate.
Phil: Really good. Good to have you on the show talking about money.
Michael: Good fun.
Phil: For our listeners who are quite used to very tangible investor stories with investors young and old, if this particular podcast hasn't appealed to you because it's been a little bit more theoretical or philosophical, don't worry, we'll be back with more of that next time around. I think it's often good to think a little bit laterally about property investing, so getting away from numbers and actually looking at how people are adding value to your journey to wealth creation. You should be asking yourself these questions around whether or not the people who is working with you are adding value to what you're trying to do. Whether, number one, you like working with them and you enjoy their time, and spending time with them as you go through this path. That's really important. If it's just a mechanical relationship that you reluctantly want to have with them I'd look as reassessing that for sure.
Munzurul touched on it, you've got to have fun with this. It's not all numbers, numbers are key, but you want to be enjoying it as well. You enjoy working with people that you typically respect and have fun and commonality with, so make sure your property A team, your investment A team, buyers agent if you use one, accountant, which you should use one, a financial planner if you have one, a mortgage broker, make sure they see the world the same way as you and you actually enjoy working with them as you create wealth. Because it's not always rosy, property investing, sometimes it gets a bit tough. You might be struggling in terms of finding tenants, you might have a number of vacancies, things might get tight, there might be other things happening within your life which is going to influence how your portfolio is performing, so it's good to have people on side who you know and trust are going to support you through the good times and the bad times.
Get in touch, remember to check out smartpropertyinvestment.com.au, all the social stuff, you can follow me on Twitter @PhilipTarrant. Thanks for tuning in, we'll see you again next week. Bye-bye.