Join the team as we talk to a real-life investor about how he built a multi-property portfolio and generated impressive equity in just 10 years. Listen now!
In a special episode this week we’ve locked the self-proclaimed ‘experts’ out of the studio and invited in a real-life investor.
Eric Brown doesn’t profess to be a property guru but that hasn’t stopped him building an impressive portfolio over the past 10 years.
In this episode, Eric sits down with the team and shares his story – giving us some insights into the lessons he’s picked up along the way.
The Smart Property Investment Show gives you insight, strategies and tactics that every property investor can use.
In each episode, the Smart Property Investment team and its special guests will break down what's happening in the world of property investment, how it affects everyday property investors and how they can take advantage of it.
Andy Scott: Hello. It's the Smart Property Investment Show. Coming up in this episode, we don't need no experts, we've got some real-life investors in the house who are going to share with us their stories.
Hello and welcome to The Smart Property Investment Show where we speculate, meditate and pontificate on all things property investment. My name is Andy Scott, I am an investor and the publisher of Smart Property Investment. I'm joined, as always, by fellow investor and managing editor of the title Mr Phil Tarrant. Hello Phil.
Phil Tarrant: Hey.
Andy Scott: How are you this week?
Phil Tarrant: I'm all right mate. How you going?
Andy Scott: I'm all right. You always interrupt me even though you know I'm always going to ask you how you are. Have you noticed that?
Phil Tarrant: That's the way I always am.
Andy Scott: Never mind. Never mind. Our special guest this week is Eric Brown. Eric is the managing director of QVS Commercial Interiors. Hello Eric. Thanks for joining us today. How's your week been?
Eric Brown: Very busy. That time of year but all good.
Andy Scott: Good. Now you're a good friend of Phil’s aren't you?
Eric Brown: Some would say that, yes.
Andy Scott: How long have you guys known each other?
Eric Brown: Probably, played water-polo together in 1996.
Phil Tarrant: Yeah, reluctantly more so. I've tried to get rid of him over a number of years but he's still a mate somehow.
Eric Brown: I saved him from drowning once or twice, I think. That's the real story.
Andy Scott: I'm not sure who I feel more sorry for, if I'm going to be perfectly honest. I guess you're all wondering listeners why on earth Phil has invited his building mate onto the show?
Well, Eric is also a property investor. Eric’s agreed to come and have a chat with us today and just share some of his story about how he built his wealth through property investment. I appreciate you coming in Eric.
Probably best start at the beginning mate. When did you first consider using property as a wealth creation vehicle and, more importantly, why?
Eric Brown: Answer the why first, I guess. I was looking for an avenue to develop and maintain passive cash flow. My first one we didn't really have that in mind. I just fell into the first one, then I learnt since there about trying to build this portfolio that's going to pay me passive income don the track.
Phil Tarrant: My question to you Eric and we have a lot of chats around property, you actually enjoy talking about property, don't you? It's something that you get a lot of satisfaction out? You really like sharing your story in a way in which it built it? You've influence quite a lot of people on the way in changing their perceptions around property and now why a lot of other people do invest in property because of your experience. Is that a pretty much a fair thing to say?
Eric Brown: Absolutely. I love it. I get excited about it. I get passionate about it. When you're doing something you love and you love talking about doing things you love, it's easy to be enthusiastic and easy to explain to people why you do it and the how's.
Eric Brown: Yep, correct. Rozelle.
Phil Tarrant: A little one-bedder or something or other?
Eric Brown: Yep.
Phil Tarrant: That's your first foray into property investment, right?
Eric Brown: I fell into that a little bit by accident because my mate owned the one next door and told me this was up for sale. I remember, at the time, we were arguing over $10,000. It was listed at $480,000. I only wanted to pay $470,000. We had this ongoing battle. Retrospectively, looking back at that, it's probably so silly of me to argue over that $10,000 because capital appreciation has been astronomical in that area. I'm glad I didn't pull out of the deal on that $10,000, I tell you. Very glad.
Phil Tarrant: Sticking on this whole idea of why do you invest in property. You bought that property for how much again?
Eric Brown: $480,000
Phil Tarrant: $480,000. What's that property worth today?
Eric Brown: $1.35 million.
Phil Tarrant: Okay. Why did you invest in property?
Eric Brown: To build wealth.
Phil Tarrant: It's pretty simple, isn't it?
Eric Brown: Yeah.
Phil Tarrant: That's a good story, the purchase in Balmain. Were you lucky? I would say so. Also, you're quite insightful in your planning and buying in an up-and-coming area. Balmain back, was that 10 years ago or so, was going through that period of gentrification. It was no longer a working-class suburb, it was starting to become an area which was very popular with a certain demographic. I'd say you got in there at the right time. Some would say you got in there too late but after you picked up your property, prices rocketed from there, didn't they?
Eric Brown: Yep, absolutely. At the time, to be completely honest, I was thinking half a million dollars for a one-bedroom semi was over the top a little bit. I did see gentrification of the area and I did honestly believe that in a few years’ time more people were going to, instead of hanging in Balmain to have fun and then move on somewhere else to have a house and land package, more people were starting to realise that they loved the area so much they decided to stay on. That's what I thought the trend was going to be.
Andy Scott: Eric, you mentioned there that you just fell into property. Did you own any property at all at the time?
Eric Brown: Zero.
Andy Scott: So why did you think “I'm going to drop ... “. You've had tremendous growth there but even so half a million for a property is not chump change by any stretch of the imagination. Why did you go, “You know what, I'm not going to buy somewhere to live in, I'm going to buy somewhere to invest”? I'm assuming you were still renting at the time as well?
Eric Brown: Yep. Still renting.
Andy Scott: What fired that decision?
Eric Brown: I was happy renting. We were in an apartment. I never thought I'd be able to live in an apartment but it was really comfortable, it was easy. Swimming pool, gym. I even had kids fairly shortly after that period. I thought that'd want me to move in the Australian dream of having your own house. It was just comfortable. I saw the benefit, particularly tax wise and the benefit of somebody else paying off your mortgage.
Phil Tarrant: Is it safe to say that, when you first invested in property, you didn't know what your goals were. It was just a good idea to do it?
Eric Brown: Yeah, absolutely.
Phil Tarrant: Would you say a lot of people start that way, in terms of property investment?
Eric Brown: Well. I certainly did. Probably, I think the first one. It’s the great Australian dream to own your own house. A lot of people buy one house because that's what they've always grown up wanting to do. The stepping stone to go to two or three or 10 properties after that takes a bit more effort and a bit more belief that you're doing it for the right reasons and it's going to pay off in the end. The first one, I would say, a lot of people just fall into.
Phil Tarrant: I'm not going to call you a sophisticated investor but you're very advanced. You are a sophisticated investor in that you have a very large portfolio now and it's quite diverse. A lot of people who end up buying a lot of properties start doing other things or they become a buyer’s agent because they're so good at it. Not that it matters, the size of your portfolio as in how any properties in it, but you've got quite a large portfolio now, don't you? It's more than 10, isn't it?
Eric Brown: Yeah, it's 11. I've diversified. I've got a commercial property and I've got some higher-end residential and some lower-end residential. For different reasons, I purchased each of them. I'm glad I do have a bit of a diverse property portfolio, yeah.
Phil Tarrant: From your first property that you bought on the Balmain peninsula back in 2005 through to where you are today where you've got property in a number of different states. You also have residential and commercial property. What was the evolution in your thinking to from “Hey, buying a property is a good idea and I'm not really too sure what I'm going to do about it”, to where you are right now in terms of more sophisticated strategy? Is it just been an organic process for you to go from – as your education, your ability and your financial capabilities have evolved, it's changed the way you think about property and the type of properties that you buy?
Eric Brown: I took a few notes of a few friends along the way that were actually getting involved. The funny thing was that I had the technical construction training but I had mates that didn't particularly have that sort of training and were acquiring property. It was a step in my mind one day about, “Shit! They're doing it. Why can't I do it?” Yeah, it was. I got myself a really good property accountant and I do use a buyer's agent to purchase them because I'm fairly busy doing what I'm doing in the commercial industry. It didn't limit me though because I used people who are good at what they do to help me get to where I wanted to get to.
Phil Tarrant: Staying with the first property that you bought, you put an investor in there from the get-go, didn't you? How long were they in the property for? Then you did a renovation, is that right?
Eric Brown: Yeah. They weren't in there that long. We had some good parties in there. He was a mate of mine so it was good fun. Yeah, then I did some renovation work to it. I spent $300,000 on it actually. Then I rented to out for near $2,000 a week so it more than paid for the mortgage and the cost of the finance cost of the renovation. It worked well for me.
Andy Scott: You said you fell into this property, are you just lucking your way all the way through this? I guess what I'm wondering is, it's a chicken and egg thing. Did you suddenly think, “Geez! I've suddenly committed quite a lot of cash to this, I better get myself skilled up and get some knowledge so I don't make any stupid decisions and make mistakes”? Or was it just fortune that it went so well where you were that a light switch went on and went, “I've been really lucky but if I put a bit of my knowledge to this I can absolutely go gang busters with this”?
Eric Brown: Probably a bit of both. It was lucky I bought that first one. I always had a dream of creating a property portfolio. I didn't actually believe it could be created so quickly. For me, it feels like quite a quick expansion. I probably didn't believe that it could all happen that quickly at the start. I always had the dream of creating a passive income through property.
Phil Tarrant: You still have that same dream?
Eric Brown: Absolutely.
Phil Tarrant: It's a retirement play for you this?
Eric Brown: Yep. It's a 10-year play. 10 years I want to own 10 properties unencumbered. Whether I have to own 20 and then sell half of them down to get there or by developing – I do have a skillset in that area, so I value add to my properties as much as I can, wherever I can.
Phil Tarrant: The goal you're talking about, semi recently you've said, you want to own 10 properties in 10 years completely unencumbered which will deliver you a particular return, I imagine.
Eric Brown: Yep.
Phil Tarrant: Which is what you see as what you need to live. How did you come up with that plan? Was that something that you established with your wife? What was the process for you to work out what your goal is now?
Eric Brown: It was actually a meeting with my accountant who's a property accountant. We sat down together. We do this every year since then, is work out what our game plan is for the year. How many we want to acquire this year. What we want to do. If we want to sell any of them. If we want to realise any capital gains. Really, just relating to my whole tax strategy and my investment strategy. We review that yearly.
Eric Brown: Still got it, yep.
Phil Tarrant: It's still performing?
Eric Brown: Yeah. I'm very much a buy and hold type guy. I don't really like to sell if I can hold on to them. If they're paying for themselves I don't see the point really.
Phil Tarrant: Would you say that first property of yours is a jewel in the portfolio crown? Or have you got some other blue-chip investments like that? I think you mentioned that you've also got some lower-end type of properties as well. You've got a bit of a mixed bag.
Eric Brown: There's a lot of security in the lower-end because as the market fluctuates – I think at the top-end of the market there's a potential that property prices could stabilise and the capital growth won't be there over a period of time. I don't have that unsureness in the lower-end of the market because people are always going to need to live somewhere. They're not particularly places that I or my family may choose to live but they're definitely places where people need to live. They're close to public transport. They're in employment hubs. They've got good facilities and good potential for growth. The latest properties have all been in south-east Queensland because I see that as the next growth suburbs.
Phil Tarrant: Has there been any points, when you've been growing your portfolio over these last 10 years, where you've been hesitant or you've lost motivation or you've slowed down or you need reassurances? Have you always been very bullish and optimistic about growing you portfolio or has it been peaks and troughs when it hasn't been at the front of your agenda or top of your agenda?
Eric Brown: Definitely been peaks and troughs. Surrounding myself with people that are confident and on the same journey as me makes it a lot easier because you learn from their mistakes and you learn from their successes. Having a buyer's agent that I trust and a tax adviser that I trust, really gives me confidence that I am doing the right thing. Before I had that structure in place and I was doing it on my own, yeah, definitely peaks and troughs in that. I made a couple of bad decisions along the way. Mining town in Queensland in Bowen hasn't done particularly well for me and now I can't get rid of it. It's costing me say, $12,000 a year. I'm lucky enough that the rest of my portfolio is covering that cost but I'd be doing a lot better if I didn't have that on my portfolio. It was a mistake and I learnt a lot form it.
Phil Tarrant: That's important. Everyone's got a couple of properties in a portfolio that don't perform as well as the other ones. Let's just stay on the less-performing properties in your portfolio or your mistakes. When did you work out they actually weren't right, they were mistakes and they were holding you back? Talk me through the process of that identification and the rationalisation of that. What have you done about it?
Eric Brown: The two biggest mistakes I've made was one, an investment in Shoal Bay.
Phil Tarrant: Okay.
Eric Brown: It's a great holiday destination. My wife and I went up there for our holidays. We had such a great time we thought, “Oh wow! What a good spot to invest”. So we did. We bought a block that we were going to battle-axe and subdivide and put two properties on. I was a young investor at that stage. I thought I could guarantee at least a little bit of capital appreciation over the next five years while I sorted myself out. When it came time, every year we'd do the figures again and we'd try and work out what we'd get after we'd done the renos, what we could sell them for and the sale price never really went up as I expected. In the end it was just never feasible. We'd make 10 or 20 grand on that and that's a lot of risk to make 10 or 20 grand. The way we decided to get around that property was to sell it. We sold it for the same price we bought it for. In reality it was a loss but another great lesson I learnt there about not relying on capital appreciation to bankroll a development.
Phil Tarrant: You got a property up in Bowen which is up in Queensland, what was the rationale for buying that property? It was a bit earlier in your investment career so you probably didn't have the depth of knowledge that you have right now. Looking back at that, what were the indicators or drivers that made you go, “Hang on a second, here's a really good idea. I should invest in this”? When did you actually go, “Hang on a second, this is not that good”?
Eric Brown: I got a lot of information on the suburb. It did tick a lot of boxes for me but these were boxes that – things changed along the way. It was a mining town and most of its industry was mining. The Queensland government was planning on putting a link between the central Queensland rail line and Port Abbot, they had a 15-year expansion program underway. Recently the dredging of Port Abbot got overturned in the High Court. The Greens challenged the Queensland government's decision to go ahead on that. That whole project got put on hold. The property, you couldn't get rid of it. I came to the realisation that wasn't such a good investment, was when I sat down with my accountant on my yearly thing. We went through the numbers and through an Excel table and actually physically worked out how much that was costing me. About 12 grand a year. That money's just going down the drain.
I decided to try an sell that. There was no investors in the market. There was no homeowners in the market. There was basically no buyers in the market. The real estate agents, all up in Bowen, just said to me, "Not possible to sell. I could give it away to somebody if you wanted but you'd be looking at a couple of hundred thousand dollar loss”. I'm just sitting in that one at the moment because I can't do anything about it. I'm going to start investigating whether I can put a granny flat on the back and get a second income for it or whether I can spend a little bit of money on the property and upgrade it and get a better rent.
Phil Tarrant: This goes back to an earlier point you said around having a diversified portfolio. It's quite a substantial loss that you're covering in that property each year. You've made some sensible investments in other areas which have been delivering you really good capital growth but also good yields on the rents themselves. You're able to cover a lot of the cash-flow constraints because of the property you have in Bowen because of some smart investments elsewhere. It sort of neutralises your portfolio. Is that the way you view it?
Eric Brown: Yeah. My portfolio is cash-flow neutral at the moment. I don't tip anything in. In fact, I get a slight positive every month. For that reason, I can afford to sit and wait on it. The Queensland government has overturned that decision again now. It's so subjective, it's so up in the air at the moment. No one can exactly tell me what's going to happen. I know The Greens will challenge that decision again. It's pretty much out of my control. I'm prepared to wait. I can fit 12 units on that site. If ever the Port Abbot expansion was to go ahead, it's potentially, a fantastic upside for me. Unless that decision's made in my favour, then it's never going to happen.
Phil Tarrant: It's something we speak about a lot Andy and that is people who look at more speculative investments like in mining towns. There's a lot of blood on the streets in some areas of Australia right now with limitation to growth in mining or the maturing of a lot of the areas where mining investment exists. I think it was just the other week, we were chatting about area in Port Hedland which were receiving a couple of grand in rents a week and now you can't give the house away. Speculation, for a lot of people, is quite dangerous. Something, we always try and champion or look to give greater insights on, is that there's nothing wrong with investing in areas with mining but it's always good to have a lot of the diversity in the type of other work or other industries that are involved in particular areas. We write a lot about it in the magazine.
If you could reverse any decision that you've made Eric in your property portfolio or if you go back and say to the Eric Brown about 5/10 years ago, “Don't do that”, what would you say? What's the one thing where you go, “Don't do that mate”?
Eric Brown: It would definitely be Bowen. If I hadn't purchased Bowen, I'd be $12,000 positive cash flow, already, a year. That was the biggest lesson I learnt. It is a potential for a massive upside but I think the risk is far too great.
Phil Tarrant: You've got property that exists in a couple of different – you've got some in your personal name. You've got some in trust structures. You've got some in an SMSF as well, is that right?
Eric Brown: Yep. I've got three in an SMSF, self-managed super fund. I've got some in my wife's name. Some in my name. I've got a new vehicle that I'm going to purchase in next, an investment company. Structured a little bit differently. My accountant helped me set that up. The different entities to help me spread the load across a few different entities which helps I think. It helps borrowing.
Phil Tarrant: It does. There's certain restrictions investing in a self-managed super fund when it comes to adding value to the property that sits within it. You're a commercial builder. You've got QVS which has been going for quite some time, I understand. You do a lot of commercial work so you actually understand building works and renovation works.
What I'm quite interested to talk about is that you've got a very good portfolio that's growing nicely. It's sophisticated in terms of the type of vehicles that you are investing in and the type of properties that you have and the different value of the properties you have. How do you actually mange to run a portfolio? I know as an investor myself, the last thing I concentrate in is my own portfolio. I'm always concentrating on work. How do you manage running a successful business and also building a really good investment portfolio? What's the secret? How do you go about that? What's you admin process?
Eric Brown: Basically, it's employing or engaging people that I trust to look help me look after that portfolio. I try not to get my hands too dirty on the day-to-day running of it. Bi-annual meetings with my accountant to help me to make sure the structure's still right and our goals are still there and how are we going to move forward in the next year. The property managers on the ground look after my day-to-day running of things. It's knowing what position I'm at. That helps a lot, having a spreadsheet to tell you exactly where you're at, what properties are costing you money, what properties are making you money. You learn from that. As the properties get older and I spend a bit of money on them to upgrade them, I increase the rents. It gets easier for them to become positively geared. Most of them are positively geared to start with but the level of cash I gain out of that property grows as the property gets older, as the rents go up and as I do some improvements and then increase my rents.
Phil Tarrant: As a builder, it'd make sense for you to actually do a lot of this work yourself but I think there's circumstances where you're doing renovations or you're trying to add value to a property where you don't get your hand dirty, you outsource the work to other people to get the job done. Can you talk me through why you do that?
Eric Brown: It's just how valuable my time is and where I can make my money. I make my money through commercial fit-outs and make goods. The one in Queensland that we just undertook a renovation on, I used a local builder because when I got some prices up there it cost me $11,000 to do kitchen, bathroom, carpet, repaint, across a two-bedroom unit. To be completely honest I couldn't send my own guys up there to do it for that price. It was just impossible. The local guys, on volume, seem to do a lot better. Why would I waste my time or my money sending my own crew up there when I can trust a local builder to do the job for me? It was so much easier. It was just set and forget, and away he went.
Phil Tarrant: It's good that you've actually made the transition from being someone who's emotionally invested in property investment, you think you've got to go do the work yourselves, choose the colours, choose the paint and put the kitchen in – to someone who's a lot more detached from it who's looking for the numbers – which is a big plus side.
What I'm interested in mate is what's next for you? I know you want to keep the foot on the pedal. I know you've got your ambition, your goals to have 10 properties unencumbered in 10 years which is a big ask, but I'm pretty confident you can get that done. What's the next property going to be? What's it going to look like? Where's it going to be? How are you going to finance it? If you could run us through the next cab off the rank or what you're hoping to do.
Eric Brown: Yep. The next cab off the rank would probably be in my wife's name. We've got access to a little bit of equity in or place of principal residence in Lilyfield at the moment. We're going to draw down on that to purchase a fourth property in her name. It will probably be in south-east Queensland again. Hopefully we can make that purchase before we deem that the boat's sailed up there. For myself, my next one, I'd like to do some sort of joint venture with a few mates that are interested in property investment. Perhaps, buy a block of four or a block of eight. Do it up ourselves or engage someone to do them up and then split them up and strata title them and keep as many as we can and sell the rest.
Phil Tarrant: Do you think you'll ever break ground yourself and get the excavators out and get the builders in and do any developments on – whether it's your Bowen block or will you be looking for other development type of opportunities so you can build?
Eric Brown: Yeah, absolutely. With either Bowen or with our Lilyfield place. We've been in a big fight with council for the last two years to get a double garage and studio on top. The plan is to rent that studio out. My company would rent that studio out from my wife because it's in her name and supplement the income coming in and going against the mortgage. That's been a big fight. I've learnt my lessons with Leichhardt council. Luckily they implemented an external planning panel in February last year which has helped me get that through. It's been an absolute nightmare apart from that. Definitely that's the one I'm going to do. The reason I'll do that is because we can then release more equity and use that to fund more purchases.
Phil Tarrant: When it comes to development, I know a lot of people get a couple of properties under their belt, they think they're pretty good at it, they get some confidence and they get a lot of wins. They think the next step for them is to but a build-block where they can put three or four or five townhouses on it or a small block of apartments. What do you think as an investor that you need to up skill yourself on to be able to go into something like that confidently? Obviously, you've got this building background which is really good. You've got a lot of qualifications in that regards. Have you got the confidence level now to start building yourself? What would you like to know more about? How would you like to improve your own capabilities to be able to confidently go out there and say, I'm going to build three or four townhouse on a block?
Eric Brown: Yeah, I've got the confidence to do that personally because of the industry I'm in but if I was to ever speak to anyone about that I would be really advising them against it. It takes a lot of time. It takes a lot of effort. So much can go wrong at developing. Most people look at developing something and think it's an easy way to make money but it's really not. So much can go wrong. You're putting so much of your money, that you've worked up for so long, at risk in doing a development. I would encourage anyone to look long and hard at any potential development before they jumped into that.
Phil Tarrant: While we're on top tips from Eric Brown, I guess to wrap up things Andy – I don't know if you've got anything else you would like to chat about mate? What I'm really interested in is, just three really simple tips from you Eric that your average property investor, whether they're starting out or they've got a couple of properties under their belt, what are the three things that are a must that you'd like to impart on people looking to create wealth or create a greater wealth through property?
Eric Brown: I would say the greatest tip I could give anyone, the thing that changed my life was actually engaging a buyer's agent who did it for a living. Went out and sourced property. Negotiated property. I struggled at the start to get my head around spending multiple thousands of dollars on engaging someone like that but I've learnt over the last 10 years that they well and truly make up the money you spend at the time of purchase by negotiating. It does add so much value to your portfolio. Buyer's agent, I would definitely recommend, go and speak to a couple of them. Work out one that suits you and engage them. Particularly if you're buying out of an area. We're buying in south-east Queensland at the moment. I've got no experience personally in walking around south-east Queensland and telling you what suburbs are best. I rely completely on my buyer's agent because that's what he does for a living. He goes up there personally, looks around and can advise me with confidence in where he thinks I should buy next.
Next one is probably seeking out and engaging a really good accountant. The strategy meetings we have with my accountant, twice a year are brilliant. It adds so much value. The value it adds is that you know where your portfolio is in any point in time. It's not a wait and see and guess how you're going. You've got the figures, they're down in front of you, they're in a spreadsheet and you know where you're at with each of those properties. I'd like to keep it at two – they're my two best tips.
Phil Tarrant: That was good mate. I really appreciate the insight Eric. I know you're a passionate investor and it means a lot to you in terms of creating wealth and how that's going to provide for the family moving forward. I feel as though it's been the Phil and Eric show today Andy. You haven't been very vocal, which is not the norm.
Andy Scott: No. Sometimes it's best to take a backseat Phil. I've had feedback that I've been carrying you for too long so I thought I'd let you off the reign today mate, see how you went. I thought you did a pretty good job mate.
Phil Tarrant: Thank you.
Andy Scott: Both did a pretty good job.
Phil Tarrant: Thank you very much mate.
Andy Scott: Eric, mate. Really appreciate you coming in and opening up having that conversation – well, with Phil really not myself. I was more a listener and doing lots of nodding which no one can see. Mate, really appreciate you coming in and telling us what you've learned and sharing some of your insight about that. That's all we've got for this week. Obviously, as Eric didn't mention but I'm sure he goes every day to www.smartpropertyinvestment.com.au to get all his latest knowledge and tips on how to increase his portfolio. We'll be back next week with another show as always. Anything you want to talk to us about or me specifically, drop me an email on [email protected]. Other than that, just remains for me to say, Eric thank you and say good bye.
Eric Brown: Thanks Andy. Thanks for having me. Thanks Phil.
Phil Tarrant: Thanks mate.
Andy Scott: Phil thanks. Say goodbye.
Phil Tarrant: See you later. Thanks Andy.
Andy Scott: This is me saying goodbye. See you next week guys.