What are the pros and cons of investing in a commercial property?
What are the pros and cons of investing in a commercial property? Read on to learn more. ...
Property investors all over the country have been flooding the Smart Property Investment team's inbox with questions about everything from why we invest the way we do, to how to find the best professionals who won't rip you off.
In this week's episode, host Phil Tarrant answers listener questions about why he invests in trust structures and how this fits with his property investment strategy.
The team, along with expert Rich Harvey, also tackle questions about how to get more back at tax time, whether you need a financial adviser and if it's too late for recent empty nesters to start ramping up their wealth creation efforts.
All this and much much more on this episode of The Smart Property Investment Show. Tune in now!
If you have any questions you want answered by the team, send them through to: [email protected]
Listen to part one of our listener Q&A with Rich Harvey:
Episode 42: SPECIAL EPISODE: All your burning property investment questions answered
Depreciation is defined as the decline in the value of an asset.
Land tax, also known as property tax, is the fee paid on the purchase of a property owned by an individual or other legal entity.
A real estate agent is a licensed professional authorised to act as a representative for buyers or sellers in a property transaction.
Introduction: Welcome to the Smart Property Investment Show, with your host Phil Tarrant.
Phil Tarrant: Good day guys, welcome to the show, Phil Tarrant here. I am the editor of Smart Property Investment. We're going to pick up the theme that we've been, that we piloted a little while ago ,a couple of weeks back, where we started answering a lot of Q&As that we're getting from our listeners. It resonated really well, we've had some great feedback on the answering of people's questions that they sort of tweeting in and e-mailing in, so we thought we'd do another podcast. We're going to do this sort of into the future as well, regular sort of Q&A focus where we listen to what you guys are saying and hopefully we can offer you some advice and intelligence and interpretation on what other people are seeing in the market of the moment, some of the activities of other investors.
So if you have any questions for us we've got a raft of experts that we can bring in to help us answer these, as you all know I'm just a humble journalist. I write, I podcast, I do all this sort of stuff. I am a property investor. Essentially when we answer these questions I always come from the context of what I'm doing and the way I see the world but it is my opinion so I need to preface the upcoming podcast with a bit of a disclaimer.
Viv, my regular co-host, how are you going?
Vivienne Kelly: I'm good thanks and I can't thank the listeners enough for flooding my inbox with questions for you Phil, so I also offer an apology to everyone out there who I haven't gotten back to yet but I have filed your question away and we will get to it, and if you're really desperate to hear from us just hassle me, send me another e-mail, give me a bit of a poke and we'll get to it.
Phil Tarrant: Excellent.
So one thing you can do for us, all our listeners, you can keep those reviews coming on iTunes, that'd be really handy.
The purpose of this podcast is to inform and educate. That's why we're doing this. The more people that we can get involved in and get part of the community to understand the realities of property investment – I guess also, Viv to demystify a lot of the, you know smoke and mirrors you often see within property investment. My personal position is investing in property is not hard as long as you do it the right way. But I think a lot of people get lost and stuck and caught up in a lot of the emotion around it all and make wrong decisions.
So keep the reviews coming in on iTunes guys, that means more people will find us and so we can get more people involved and connected and hopefully make smarter property investment decisions moving forward.
In terms of a disclaimer, guys this is just an opinion. My recommendation is that any of these questions or your own personal circumstances you need to go and see a good adviser, be a financial planner, an accountant, a buyer's agent or your mortgage broker. Make sure you get all the information you need to know to make sure it matches your personal buying and investment decisions.
So to help us out today we've asked Rich Harvey back onto the show. Rich joined us in our first Q&A session and we thought we'd bring him back. We thought he did a pretty reasonable job. Rich runs a buyer's agency called propertybuyer.com.au. Rich has been at this for 15 years so he's pretty much seen all walks of life and he's pretty well versed to answer most questions in regards to property investment. So, Rich thanks for coming in mate.
Rich Harvey: Pleasure Phil, great to be here.
Phil Tarrant: So what we'll do, Viv I'm going to throw over to you and you can lead us through this.
Vivienne Kelly: Cool, well last time that we had Rich in, we answered questions from Rebecca, Colin and Jody, but we just couldn't get to them all. So we've got sort of a few others that have rolled in recent weeks so we'll get straight to it.
Phil, I get a lot of questions because you talk so openly about your portfolio and whenever you talk about it I often get e-mails asking about the way that you've structured your portfolio. So this question comes from Sharon and is about how you have set up your portfolio and why you did it this way?
Sharon wrote to us in August and said, "Hi Phil. I follow every episode of the SPI show." Good work Sharon. "It's really awesome, very interesting and educational. In your podcasts titled 'Four properties in four months: The SPI show gives the inside scoop on its portfolio’” – which by the way guys is episode 34 and was one of our most popular podcast to date. So go have a listen. It went up around the 19th of July, I think. Sharon goes on, "You mentioned all the properties you've purchased are under trust structures. What are the main benefits of purchasing under a trust? The costs associated to set up and maintain trusts can be quite high especially when you have multiple properties, you can be paying multiples of $1,000 per annum on accounting fees for trusts. What do you see as the main pros and cons? Regards Sharon."
So Phil, any insights for Sharon on why you went down this route and its pros and cons? I do get the trust structure question a lot and to be honest I myself don't really know why you invest this way. So what's your thinking here?
Phil Tarrant: It's a bit of a headache investing in the trust my circumstances, so for Smart Property Investment – one of the reasons why we created this product, Viv, as you know was to demystify investing in property. So as a journalist and you know reading all the stories that we've seen over the years about all these people making millions of dollars overnight in property and my sort of bullshit radar said, "something is not right here." So we thought “Let's do it ourselves. Let's do it with Small Property Investment.” We started Smart Property Investment, one of the reasons was to highlight how to invest in property. For us, I invest for the purpose of the portfolio, for Smart Property Investment with my business partner. On that basis we thought investing in the trust was the best structure for us to do that. Obviously I invest in property outside of that trust structure as well. But that's the other stuff that I do. For us investing in the trust was important for a number of different reasons. We had a lot of advice around this, particularly on behalf of our accountant but because I invest with someone, that's the best structure for us, there’s also a lot of other reasons that we do it.
My recommendation was speak to an accountant to make sure that investing in trusts is right for you and Rich can talk a little bit more about that moving forward. For us we have three different trusts for this particular portfolio. We have a number of properties in every trust. For us, one of the negatives of investing in the trust, when we started buying and you were saying name episode 34 we bought a lot of properties in western suburbs of Sydney really early on. That pretty much capped us out in terms of land tax pretty much straight away. So if we were investing personally that would have done that. For us you know you don't get any land tax breaks investing in the trust in New South Wales and that's a real hassle, so it's a big cost for us. We understand that cost and we took that into consideration when we started investing in the trusts. Land tax got quite expensive for us in New South Wales. One of the reasons why we moved to Queensland was to try and minimise some of those costs but also when we're buying in western suburbs of Sydney the reasons why we're investing there at that point in time, five years ago, weren't there sort of two or three years ago, so hence the reason why we shifted our strategy moved up to Brisbane as well.
Investing in Brisbane and the trust, you do get some thresholds in terms of land tax and then once you sort of near that threshold as well and obviously speak your accountant, you can set up new trusts and actually start getting that threshold again. So a really complicated, long-winded response and I'll probably need a whole podcast to talk about it. So Sharon that's sort of a really, really quick view of why we invest in the trust. But by and large and speaking to the number of different accountants that I speak to, simplicity is key. It is a headache investing in a trust, there is a lot of compliance that needs to be associated with it. If you can invest in your personal name, invest in your personal name.
Rich, what do you reckon?
Rich Harvey: Yeah look I think it's a good question to ask. I get asked this question all the time and again disclaimer I'm not a qualified financial adviser or an account, so do speak to a professional accountant.
A couple of the pros and cons. I use trust structures myself and I think that the general sort of view I have of the world is, like you Phil, keep it simple and minimise your costs. But you do want to be a smart investor. I mean that's what you've called your company and it's important to be smart. Some of the cons of investing in a trust structure is just the cost of setting it up. It's going to cost you about probably two grand for the trust and $1,500 for the company and you obviously lose that tax threshold in New South Wales which is about $480,000. In Queensland it's about $600,000, so it is a bit higher there.
But the benefits on the flip side, the benefits are that you are protecting your wealth. So when you have a property in a trust it effectively quarantines it from someone else trying to litigate and take something against you. So if you're you know perhaps a litigious industry, like you're a doctor or a medical person...
Phil Tarrant: Or in the media...
Rich Harvey: ...or in the media exactly there you go, you're a target. So someone could come after you and try to take your wealth and it might have taken you 20 years 50 years whatever to build up your wealth, have it in trust and basically you're protected. Another thing is you can also minimise your tax. It is expensive to set it up but you know down the track if you want to hand over that property that you've had for 20, 30 years to your kids you can transfer the ownership of that property without paying duty. So you can gift, you can basically rewrite the directors of the company, of the trust and then give that to your children. So there's intergenerational wealth that you can plan for and that's quite a good thing down the track. And also if you have a trust you can distribute your income a lot more effectively to other entities or to individuals, but obviously if that flows through the trust it's going to be taxed whoever ends up holding the money at the end of the day.
So there's a couple of pros and cons and each person's got to weigh it up. So I think your general advice if you're in a sort of in a PAYE job earning, general employee, you're probably going to buy it in your personal name. But in another kind of industry where you work for yourself then a trust structure may be more appropriate.
Phil Tarrant: Yeah, and I’d challenge your account also on this. We spoke about not all real estate agents being created equal in the last podcast that we did on Q&A stuff and that's very much the same with accountants. Some exceptional accountants out there, and some accountants are very good in particular disciplines. My experience is that not all accountants really understand property investment as well as they might understand sort of you know the advice they can provide to business owners. So challenge your accountant and speak to a number of different accountants about how you should structure investing in property and I'd get a number different bits of advice on it.
Vivienne Kelly: Great. So we also get lots and lots of questions about the people you've used to help build your portfolio Phil and indeed how to find the right people to make up your property A team. Rich, I'm sure you're a big advocate of using professionals to get the most out of your portfolio as well. So here we have an email from Rachel Beadman about how to find the best professional.
So she wrote in a while back, so sorry about that Rachel, and said, "Hi Phil. I'm a regular listener to your show and always enjoy listening to people's experiences, lessons learned and great tips from the people who have done it. I've been in the real estate industry for many years, worked in the UK and the last seven years in Sydney running property management business, currently with McGrath. I've just started investing and recently purchased a four-bedder in Springfield Lakes and about to go for property number two in Race View Queensland with the help of Paul at a Pure Property..." – who incidentally for keen listeners out there featured on our podcast in Episode 38, back in August where he talked about identifying under-market-value properties, so go and have a listen, but back to Rachel. "Hopefully this is the start of a successful investing journey," she said. "My questions are if you have the time to advise: How do I choose a good tax accountant? Do you have any recommendations? I live in Crows Nest, Sydney but work across north, northwest and eastern suburbs, so getting around is easy. Two, I'm using a mortgage broker, Melanie Cunliffe from Indigo Finance. Paul from Pure Property as a buyer's agent but don't have a financial adviser, should I? And if so who do you recommend?"
She gives us a little bit of context as well and says, "A little bit about me. 48 years old, renting in Crows Nest with my partner. I have two grown-up children who have both left home. I've been a licensed real estate agent and business broker, although I never used the broker part, for 21 years. Seven years in Sydney, from the UK. I'm not a sales agent but have been and loved it in the UK. I'm bitten by the investment bug and would like to consider that route and as a buyer's agent for a future career move. Any good contacts or suggestions? I've got heaps of other questions but I know your time is precious. Would love to hear from you and thank you in advance for reading my email. Have a great day. Rachel Beadman."
So firstly thanks so much for your email Rachel and we will try to tackle your questions one at a time. So let's go with the first one first. Do you guys think Rachel or indeed investors in general need a good tax accountant? Why? And how can they find one?
Rich Harvey: I'd say absolutely yes. I think you know I always use this line, you don't know what you don't know. And if you want to be an expert in tax law, go ahead and you'll get insomnia reading the tax act. So I definitely think you need a good accountant and you've got to find one that regularly works with property investors, that's a key, one that understands the ins and outs and the benefits of tax law around property investment. Find also one that obviously sticks within the tax law and is not too aggressive in terms of their structures and their approach, and one that just gives you a tailored solution for your own individual circumstances. You know, you don't just want an off-the-shelf accountant that has just has one solution for everyone. It is a very much a tailored solution. So find someone that's got experience and ask...
Phil Tarrant: Yeah I sort of, I probably should have read ahead of these questions, Viv, I sort of answered this question with the last thing I was talking about with not all tax accountants are credited equal. We've got an exceptional tax account, Keshab, which is based out in Parramatta. The accountant that was have, a guy called Munzurul out there at, Keshab, he's a property investor, he's got a massive portfolio that guy. He knows it. You know he's a sort of ex-PWC, or one of the big accounting firms guys who set up his own practice and is an avid property investor, he's an advocate of property investment. He knows property inside out compared to any other accountant I know. He knows, it lives it, breathes it and he's done it. You speak to a lot of accountants and they don't invest in property, they will probably have their stuff in other asset classes. Let's look at the A team that's what we sort of spoke about at the front of the question, what is an A team? A team is, you know I'm pro advice, so I don't proclaim to be an expert in property investment, but I'm pretty smart and understanding that I need people to help me create wealth through property.
So from absolute get-go I said, I need to get people to help me out, and they are a good accountant, a good mortgage broker and a good buyer's agent. We found a really good buyer's agent, Right Property Group, great operators, know it inside out. They put us into every single property and have done a great job. Have an exceptional mortgage broker, we use Aussie out in Parramatta, a guy called Ross. He's Aussie’s number one mortgage broker. He's also a property investor, he's got a portfolio which is large as well. So all these guys are property investors and they get it. Just make sure that any adviser you use gets it, even mortgage brokers, you want a mortgage broker that invests in property.
Vivienne Kelly: So when it comes to accountants, is there such a thing as someone sort of chasing down too much at tax return time? I know when it gets to tax time here at Momentum Media with the journalists it can be a bit of a race to the bottom, who can get the dodgiest accountant to get them the most money back? What's your advice to property investors in this why way – should they be trying to get everything and anything they can back? Or is it more important to find someone, as you say, who really knows property?
Phil Tarrant: Yeah. It's a much bigger question than that. It's about an accountant understanding what you're trying to do by investing in property. So obviously it's a wealth creation tool, investing in property. A lot of accountants and again what we're not qualified to talk about this but I'll speak anecdotally, a lot of accountants will be looking at how to maximise your tax return as much as possible. Or if you're a self-employed, trying to pay as little tax as possible, obviously that all needs to happen within the confines of the law. But if you're looking to drive down your income and not show profitability in the business, that's really going to impact your ability to borrow. So as property investor, what do you need? You need to be able to borrow money. How do you borrow money? Well you need to be able to show to the bank that you can service a mortgage. Now if you can’t do that it's going to essentially hamstring yourself rapidly in terms of investing in property moving forward. So specifically with an accountant, you need to actually get an accountant who understands what you're trying to achieve that has a strategic view on this and not just be a compliance operator. They need to go, be an adviser.
Rich Harvey: That's right. They've got to look at the structure, it's not just about tax minimisation. It's about getting the right structure in place. And as Phil said you've got to prove serviceability. Serviceability to the banks is gold. That enables you to then buy more properties and grow your wealth. That's a really key thing.
I think you, just carrying on this idea of a tax adviser, one of things that a lot of people forget about is getting a quantity surveyor, a depreciation report at tax time. There's some great companies out there, but every investor must get a depreciation schedule for their property. You don't have to get it immediately the day you buy your property, as long as it's done before you do your tax return. Another thing a lot of people forget when they renovate is scrapping reports. A lot of people have no idea what's a scraping report is.
Phil Tarrant: We didn’t do it on one of our properties. We scrapped a whole bunch of stuff and our accountant went, "What are you doing here? You lose thousands."
Rich Harvey: You lose thousands Phil, exactly. So any renovators out there, go and get a quantity surveyor to go in and write down all that depreciable items that are left, it could be the carpets, the blinds, the finishes and they'll write a report. And if you're going to renovate that you can write off the value of those items immediately in the year that you're doing the renovation. So there's a great tax saver there. I mean the cost of these reports is you know around 500 bucks, 600 bucks but you more than make that back in the tax deductions that you get.
Phil Tarrant: And a good accountant will be able to advise you on that as well because you know scrapping in particular there's a lot of, you need to be scrapping it at a point in time and whether or not there’s been investors is in there or you just bought it new and there's a lot of stuff that you'll never ever going to know about it if you try and do this stuff yourself.
Rich Harvey: The other tip Phil is, don't get the accountant do the scrapping report. Get one of the quantity surveyors to do it. The accountants will say, "you've got the numbers here, I can just use that". No. Get a report from someone like BMT, or Washington Brown or Depreciator and they'll do it for you and do it very, very thoroughly.
Vivienne Kelly: So Rachel also wants to know if she needs a financial adviser there in the mix. What do you think about this? Is there such a thing as too many chefs in the kitchen? How many professionals do property investors need? And which ones are the most important ones?
Phil Tarrant: I think anyone who's going to add value and you need to be discerning about who you need to have as part of your sort of advisory team, or your A team. Buyer's agent sort of operate in quite a strange world, Rich, you can probably talk about this little bit more. Unfortunately there is no regulation in property advice at the moment. PIPA, who’s sort of the peak body for the Property Investment Professionals of Australia have been working hard on government quite some time to try to get some regulation around this but as it sits right now there's no real regulation around people providing advice around property. So it's a bit of a murky world, property investment advice. There is a lot of people and you've probably seen it – you’ve just go to Google, Google ‘property spruikers’ and you'll see some alarming stories over the years of people just getting taken for a ride. Well-dressed blokes in suits who talk really well you know selling a dream about property investment and fleecing people. So you need to be exceptionally careful about who you take advice from in property and you need to understand why people are providing you that advice.
Now if you're paying a fee for that advice, that's typically a good thing. So that person is operating on your behalf. If people offering you free advice and making recommendations to you to purchase particular...
Vivienne Kelly: You’ve got to question where the money is coming from.
Phil Tarrant: You've got to understand – people are going to get paid somewhere along the way. So you're speaking here about financial advisers, my experience with financial advisers and I highly recommend that you get educated about the people who can help you with advice but you need to understand how advisers can help you. So if you're looking for a wealth creation strategy, a wealth creation goal, you need to speak to advisers around that. That might be your financial adviser, it might be a really good accountant. Obviously buyer’s agents will help you along that path as well. With financial advisers, you need to understand how financial advisers are paid. My experience is that there are some very, very, very good financial advisers that have a property bent. But there is a lot of financial advisers who don't even look at property. They'll look at putting you into other asset classes and that sounds a little bit hard but it goes back to the advice that you're getting, how you're paying for that advice. Would you say that was fair Rich?
Rich Harvey: Yea, I agree totally Phil. I think you're really on the right track there, I agree towards your sentiment. Choose an adviser that's fee for service, not taking a percentage of your overall wealth or trying to put you into a managed fund and take a cut of that just because they’re going to place you into that investment and they're going to get a big kickback. I personally use a financial adviser and I even at my stage I think is absolutely critical because as I said before, I don't know what I don't know. I use a financial adviser for a couple of reasons, one that keep me on track, two they keep me accountable, and they look my, at each investment that I make, I want to get toward a goal of financial independence and what that adviser does is, they’re like a board of directors, they’re there to help you make decisions and say, "is this next investment getting me closer to my goal or further away from my goal?" And that's what a financial adviser does. They’re going to protect your wealth.
The other things the your adviser should do, the financial adviser is you get your insurances right. So income protection, life trauma, TPD, those kind of things. A lot of people forget to do that. They might get a whole portfolio of 10 properties, not insure their income and that's the thing that's keeping the whole thing going you know. So again they're all tax deductible things that people should be doing.
So getting someone sort of a bit left of centre and removed from your situation you can look at it objectively, holistically, I totally recommend. Just on using a buyer's agent Phil, in terms of who to use, I totally agree, you've got to get someone who's firstly licensed and operates in, licensed in the state where you're buying. They should be a member of PIPA and also a member of REBAA the Real Estate Buyer's Agent Association. Now both those groups have a very strict code of ethics, and you know you want to work with an adviser that's got your best interests at heart and not getting secret kickbacks along the way.
Vivienne Kelly: So just looking more generally at Rachel's situation, it's something that we find quite a bit. Once people’s kids leave home they really start to look at the future and start ramping up their investment endeavours. So why do you two think this is, and any advice for people at this stage of their life? Is it a mad rush to retirement or is there still time to build a solid foundation once you have an empty nest?
Phil Tarrant: I reckon irrelevant of whether or not it's time to start investing in property because your children have left home or you still have children sitting at home – if you are not yet in property investment and you want to get into property investment, get into property investment as quickly as you possibly can. For this particular circumstance with Rachel, I don't know why this or whether it's been a trigger to start investing in property, but as soon as you can feasibly afford to invest in property start doing. I wish I started investing in property a long time ago. I spent my sort of 20s traveling around drinking beer and spent all my money doing that and I didn't really get going at it until I was in my 30s. I wish I started ages ago and prioritised it. So my advice, get going as quickly as you can, don't procrastinate too much, get educated, understand what your goals are and as we've just spoken about, there are a number different advisers that are out there that can put you and give you a roadmap or a blueprint to invest in property. But as you start doing it, start doing it.
Rich Harvey: I mean Rachel's 48 and that's definitely not too late to start investing. I do see a lot of clients come to us and they might be in their 50s and they think, they've just got their own home and they haven't started anything and the think ‘Have I left it too late?’ No you haven't left it too late but they're just going to have to calibrate their expectations as to what they can achieve in the next 10 to 15 years before retirement. So I think with the empty nesters they've got more disposable income. You know they've got the kids out of school, they've got rid of their school fees and all those other expenses in raising expensive teenagers which is what I have at the moment – so they eat us out of house and home – but you know as you get closer to retirement you do get more motivated with those decisions and it's really important, whatever stage, but particularly as you're heading toward retirement not to make mistakes in the decisions you're making. That's where the advice comes in as you say Phil.
And don't take shortcuts. You know a lot of people think, "oh gosh I've already got you know a 100 grand in my Super fund, I've got to really ramp it up so I'll go and do you know really fancy CFDs or options or some other fancy kind of course to get rich quick." Don't do that. You know just get solid investment properties behind you, get the right advice and you'll do well.
Phil Tarrant: See I don't touch any of that stuff you know like CFDs. I know a lot of people make good money doing that sort of stuff right, but I don't have the time to do it, it's a full-time job nearly to start investing into that stuff. And I don't understand, I get it, but I don't understand it to the depth that I understand property. So, for me property makes all the sense because I'm creating wealth through property. It doesn't take a lot of my time to do it because I'm outsourcing most of the advice that I get around it. And you know what if I'm not focused on it at any point in time, the properties that I've bought, which have been based on a good blueprint, a good strategy, are doing what they should be doing and they are going up in value.
Rich Harvey: They are – not almost quite not a sit and forget type of strategy – but there's a fair bit of work to get one set up, but then if you've got the right property manager, you've got the right accountant, it's going to run itself going forward. You watch Phil, in a couple of years look at your portfolio and you'll be surprised, gosh the rents can go up you know a couple of per cent a year, the value is going up a couple of per cent a year. It's going to perform for you.
Phil Tarrant: Yes it's brilliant and that's why I invest in property. You know it's a long-term play over time. When I get to a point when I want to retire, I cannot see myself doing that because I enjoy working, but it is going to give me, like you Rich, the flexibility to have a nice comfortable latter part of my life.
Rich Harvey: Exactly. You look, I mean my analogy is like a baby. You know you nurse it, you feed it early in the years and it's going to look after you in later life.
Phil Tarrant: Yeah it's good.
Vivienne Kelly: All right Sharon and Rachel I hope that answered your questions and unfortunately we're out of time again but we will make this a more regular segment answering all the questions that have poured through and clogged up my inbox. So if you do have a question or you want anything further clarified about Phil’s portfolio and what we've talked about today just shoot us an email, [email protected] and I will get back to you at some point this year.
Phil Tarrant: Yeah, good let them flood in. We'll make a commitment Viv, that we'll do this on a really regular basis so do send your stuff in and we'll get back to you as quickly as we can. I know there's a lot more questions out there that we really need to start addressing and contextually you know this is, a lot of stuff that we're talking about is real specific to people's circumstances and situations. If you just want some general opinions on just the world at large as well, we don’t want to talk about specific property locations and suburbs. You know there's lot of information online, in particular smartpropertyinvestment.com.au, where you can do so much research around this sort of stuff. But the sort of theme, strategy, trends, that sort of stuff, let us know, write in. If there's any one that you particularly want to hear from in Australia, let us know, we'll get them in as well. But Rich, mate, let's get you back again as well.
Rich Harvey: Love to be here Phil, happy to answer any questions.
Phil Tarrant: Yeah, I appreciate your insights. You know as I said earlier on, the world of property advice is evolving rapidly which is a good thing and there are more and more people being attracted from a professional level into this market to assist Australians be more effective in buying property. You've been at it for 15 years mate, you're probably one of the sort of the first starers in this space but you know there is a lot of other buyer's agents now coming into the market.
Rich Harvey: I'm really, one of the things I’m doing Phil, is, I'm pushing for greater regulation. I'm actually pushing for a definition of the word ‘buyer's agent’ in the Property, Stock and Business Agents Act. We're also pushing for greater education and licensing standards for buyer's agent specifically, because there's more and more people coming into that field and it's not again not regulated enough to the extent it should be. So we want to make sure they've got robust standards, like mortgage broking, you want to have robust standards in the industry where they're providing a service to consumers for a very expensive purchase, so it should be.
Phil Tarrant: No it's good. So I guess to summarise this podcast, a couple of points I would make. Number one, question the advice that you're getting and understand who you need as an adviser as part of that I guess you need to understand how the adviser gets paid. I'm pro-advice, I'm pro fee for service, so if you’re not getting charged for advice, you need to answer and ask a question where the person's getting paid for doing it. Number two, not all advisers are created equal in terms of advice that they can give you. So if you're going to choose an adviser to make them part of your A team, whether it's a financial planner or accountant, a buyer's agent or a mortgage broker, I'd probably want to make sure that they are a property investor themselves. And you know if you stick to that you're probably going to do pretty well. Nice, all right Viv, thank you.
Vivienne Kelly: Cool, thanks Phil.
Phil Tarrant: Good to have you on the show. Rich. Very good mate. Remember to tune into smartpropertyinvestment.com.au. You can follow us on all the social channels Facebook, Twitter, etc. You can follow me @PhillipTarrant, you follow Rich, @RichHarvey. Yeah, you can check out Rich Harvey's business as well, propertybuyer.com.au. Great URL by the way, how long have you had that for?
Rich Harvey: 15 years. The name says it all.
Phil Tarrant: It's smart. If you want to know more about all this stuff, the different type of advisers that there are out there, go to the website, just search on the website, property buyer or accountant or how to find an accountant or whatever, and there will be so much information there to help you on your way. What I ask of you guys is just keep those reviews coming on iTunes, let's keep making this podcast and this community bigger and brighter. Look forward to you tuning in next week. Thanks, see ya, bye.