ACT reports progress of ‘Better Suburbs’
The ACT government has delivered an update on its “Better Suburbs” plan, detailing the headway that has been made to...
Chinese investor Eric Wu says the biggest mistake he’s made on his investment journey is not investing ambitiously enough.
In this episode of The Smart Property Investment Show, he joins host Phil Tarrant to discuss the opportunities he’s found within the Australian property market, how he’s accumulated and managed his nine-strong portfolio, and his three-stage plan for how he’ll double his assets in under 10 years.
Tune in now to hear all of this and much, much more in this episode of The Smart Property Investment Show!
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Phil Tarrant: G’day everyone. It's Phil Tarrant here from The Smart Property Investment Show. Thanks for joining us again this week, always a pleasure to have you along with the ride. It's been an interesting ride. Obviously in a market which, for some people, is a concerning market. Some other people think it's the best market in many years. We have pending or potential rate hikes, depending who you believe. Some people think they're going up, some people also think they're going down. But you have different markets in Australia, which perform very differently.
The city market, which irrespective of which economist you speak to, and some of the doomsday you hear around the growth of the city market, continues its onward march. I've just recently come back from Perth, where I spent some time with some real estate agents. Over there in WA, it's doom and gloom. The markets, sort of, 10+ per cent down. Real estate agents are struggling not only finding stock, but selling it as well. I had a good chat when I was out there in Perth with an economist called Stephen Koukoulas, who you might've heard of before. He said that the market in Perth's probably nearing the bottom, and if you're ever looking at potentially the Perth market, it's probably time to lift the bonnet up and see what's going on inside. Obviously that's in the context of a mining downturn, or a mining industry which is now just in a production phase, and some other macro factors. The way the world is right now, and the way the markets are right now, is that if you look in the right spot it's a great time to be a property investor.
The person I've got on the show today is someone who I think is going to give us a really good story about his journey. Not only as a new Australian, or a migrant into Australia, but also how they've gone and built a public portfolio. So, with that I'll introduce Eric Wu. Eric, how you going?
Eric Wu: I'm good, thanks, Phil, thanks for having me here. I really appreciate the opportunity.
Phil Tarrant: So, you've been listening to the show for a little while?
Eric Wu: Oh, yeah. You're one of the top quality ones. I'm a loyal listener.
Phil Tarrant: Loyal listener?
Eric Wu: Yeah.
Phil Tarrant: What's sort of been the things that you've got most out of The Smart Property Investment Show? How has it helped shape the way you invest?
Eric Wu: Well, I think the important thing is you have different stories to tell. Different investors come from different journeys. It's very inspirational. Also, you have different experts giving different opinions, and also advice. So, that helps a lot. Not only giving the technical stuff, but also giving you money sight, help changing your way of thinking. I think last one is biggest hurdle for the new investors.
Sorry. I have to apologise, I do speak with an accent. If you are listening and don't understand me, please stop me and let me say it again.
Phil Tarrant: So, let's talk about your story, because that's what we like. You speak with an accent, where are you from originally? Where's home?
Eric Wu: I'm originally from China, I came here in the end of 2002, which is nearly... Well, about 14 years ago. So, I came here as a student doing my master's degree. My wife came here one year before me, so we bought our first property in 2007 which is home, which is a unit in Hornsby. So, at that time it was a pretty good, reasonable price. Three years later, it has run about 30 per cent growth. So, then we take some equity out to repeat the process.
Now, we have bought a... With growth of the current market, we have bought $5 million portfolio, roughly.
Phil Tarrant: So your portfolio now is worth five million. So, you started off in Hornsby?
Eric Wu: Yep.
Phil Tarrant: So, how many... Let's talk through the different properties that you have to create a five million portfolio. Are they all in Sydney?
Eric Wu: Divided between Sydney and Queensland.
Phil Tarrant: And Queensland. Okay, so Hornsby was your first property?
Eric Wu: Yep.
Phil Tarrant: Which is your principal place of residence?
Eric Wu: No, we moved out.
Phil Tarrant: You moved out? Okay, but you still have that now?
Eric Wu: Yeah, we still have that.
Phil Tarrant: Okay. How much did you buy that property for?
Eric Wu: It was around $380,000.
Phil Tarrant: Okay, $380,000. And today it's worth-
Eric Wu: $850,000.
Phil Tarrant: $850,000, okay. That's reasonable growth.
Eric Wu: Thank you.
Phil Tarrant: The property after Hornsby, where did you invest?
Eric Wu: So, the next one we bought in Blacktown area, it's really basic. I think it's ex-house commission houses. I think we bought it for $295,000?
Phil Tarrant: Okay.
Eric Wu: It's close to the train station, close to the schools, not far from the shops, so now it's worth around about $700,000.
Phil Tarrant: $700,000. Is that near Blacktown Station?
Eric Wu: Yeah, Blacktown area.
Phil Tarrant: Blacktown area. That's okay I grew up in Blacktown, so I know the area. I used to deliver pizzas from Pizza Hut out of Blacktown so I know every single street. Anyway, so that's been a really performing property. So, when did you buy that property in Blacktown?
Eric Wu: That was in 2010, I think.
Phil Tarrant: 2010. So that's seven years, that's good. Was that an ex-housing commission house?
Eric Wu: I would think so.
Phil Tarrant: Yeah.
Eric Wu: It's very basic, very solid, basic property.
Phil Tarrant: Okay. And then after Blacktown, where did you-
Eric Wu: Blacktown again, that was one year after we bought another one I would think is still standard ex-house commission house. 550 square metre land, three bedrooms, very basic. We bought it for $300K. We spent a little money doing renovation just to bring it up to the market standard of livable condition. Now I think it runs about $750,000.
Phil Tarrant: $750,000, okay. And then property number four?
Eric Wu: Four is the house we live in now, Matthew. It's a townhouse we bought for $480-485,000, I think? Now it's $850,000.
Phil Tarrant: $850,000, okay. So, still in Sydney?
Eric Wu: Yeah.
Phil Tarrant: Okay and then the property after Marsfield?
Eric Wu: We bought another one in Toowoomba, it was a little bit of an emotion buy.
Phil Tarrant: In Toowoomba.
Eric Wu: Yeah.
Phil Tarrant: In Queensland.
Eric Wu: Yes.
Phil Tarrant: Okay.
Eric Wu: It's a three bedroom townhouse, I think we bought it not purely for an investment reason because my wife, she's a Buddhist. So, there's a Buddhist college there. She was thinking one day she might go to college to study. So, that's part of the reason we bought it. It's still okay, it's still a neutral post geared, but it has not grown much fast. Also the Toowoomba is flooded with new development so I can't see much growth in the next-
Phil Tarrant: How much did you pay for the one in Toowoomba?
Eric Wu: It was really cheap. I think 168k?
Phil Tarrant: And now?
Eric Wu: $180,000.
Phil Tarrant: $180,000, okay. A little bit of growth. Okay, so how many more is there?
Eric Wu: Four more.
Phil Tarrant: Okay, let's keep going. So that was your first four in Queensland and Toowoomba and where after that?
Eric Wu: So then we bought in Wooden West, it's a simple Queensland assets. Standard 600 square metres of land on a bit of slope, so it's not flat, in fact, at all. I think. We pay for $387,000, close to $390,000. Now it's running about $520,000.
Phil Tarrant: Okay, wow. Okay. And the second to last one, I think? Third to last one?
Eric Wu: I bought two in Cleveland.
Phil Tarrant: Okay.
Eric Wu: So, I think it's still below market value. The last one we bought in Bergdale. It's still bayside, close to the water as well in Brisbane.
Phil Tarrant: So add them all up and the total value of your portfolio today is $5-ish million dollars.
Eric Wu: Ballpark number.
Phil Tarrant: $5 million. How much debt are you carrying against-
Eric Wu: $3 million.
Phil Tarrant: Okay. So you've got about two million dollars in equity.
Eric Wu: Yeah.
Phil Tarrant: Which is not bad over seven years, really.
Eric Wu: Thank you.
Phil Tarrant: So you can make money in property.
Eric Wu: Sorry?
Phil Tarrant: You can make money in property, it is possible.
Eric Wu: Oh, I think you can. It depends on three factors that you need to consider: the first is when you get in the market, how long are you going to stay in the market? And also how big the portfolio is.
Phil Tarrant: What's your strategy moving forward? So, let's have a chat about why you've built a five million dollar portfolio with two million dollars in equity. Why are you investing in property? What's the long term goal for you as a property investor?
Eric Wu: Okay, it all started with why I started investing. Before I bought my first investment property, I had to look at where we go from there. Because we come here and do not want to rely on the social welfare system. That's not why we came here. I think Australia's a very fair country and has lots of opportunities and we wanted to use that. And also, we wanted to give back to the country as well. We didn't want to become welfare recipients. That was not our goal coming here.
But when we look at the contribution we would have by the time we retire, it was nowhere near close enough to live on. And I wouldn't want to be another dependent, either. So, we were thinking there must be some way we can find out where to go. So, the first spark was pretty much the equity growth in the Hornsby property of 30 per cent roughly in three years, I think?
I thought, well, if this can happen, I think there will be another chance for us to grow some real wealth. So that's how we started. We were working with some researchers as well with lots of books, just to change how we think, and see how the numbers work and read lots of magazines as well and some online forums and podcasts like yours. So, that's how it got started.
Over the years, we have some kind of our own philosophy and the rules we wanted to follow. So my wife and me pretty much inspired renovate and hold. So over the years we just proved what we thought worked for us. The one thing I really regret is kind of when we started, our goal was too small.
Phil Tarrant: Do you know how often I hear that? Where people say, what's your biggest regret and Adam, our multimedia guy here, he's nodding his head... How many people say the biggest mistake I made in property was not being more ambitious when I could have been? And I say exactly the same. I was buying properties in similar areas to you at the same time. And you look at some of these Blacktown properties where you've bought for $300,000 and are now worth $750,000. I wish I had about 20 of them in my-
Eric Wu: That's right!
Phil Tarrant: If I look back to those period of times, if I red-lined it a little bit more and maybe was a little bit more aggressive, I probably could have added more of those sort of assets to my portfolio but, I'm reasonably risk-averse, and therefore I probably didn't go as hard as what I could have or I didn't have enough time or I'm sure I've got plenty of excuses.
What do you think slowed you down from doing more back then, knowing that you saw the upsides of investing in property, particularly at the time that you were investing?
Eric Wu: I think there is a very good point of fear. It's kind of the bell ringing in the back of your mind. You have to be really careful where you invest because you leverage I would say, 80 per cent. So, if it grows, the profit's all yours. But if it comes down, all the loss will be yours as well. You have to have a long term goal and risk management strategy in place as well. It's not about how much profit you make in the first few years. Also what's going to happen in 10, 15 or 20 years? Can you afford the risk for your family, for yourself? You're not looking to make a quick profit and leave. You're looking at the long term. And also it might be hard for the second generation. Who knows?
Phil Tarrant: Do you have children?
Eric Wu: Yes I do. Two kids.
Phil Tarrant: How old are your children?
Eric Wu: My daughter will be eight by the end of this month and my son will be one-half in January.
Phil Tarrant: And so is your idea to pass on this property portfolio to your children?
Eric Wu: Sort of, but I'm not going to hand it over to them on a plate. I want them to learn hard work. I want them to understand assets and grow them as well. Learn the values of hard work.
Phil Tarrant: And so there's...about ten properties in your portfolio? Ten?
Eric Wu: At this moment, yes.
Phil Tarrant: So, you have ten properties.
Eric Wu: Sorry, nine.
Phil Tarrant: Nine properties with evaluation of five million and two million in equity. Thinking about the future and how you want to shape your portfolio and why you want to grow it. What's your portfolio going to look like in 10 years, 15 years, 20 years, when you're preparing potentially for retirement? How big will it be and why do you want it to be that size?
Eric Wu: I'll answer this question in two stages. The first one is I would like in five years’ time, to double the portfolio.
Phil Tarrant: The total value of it-
Eric Wu: Yes. The value of it. We'll talk about equity as well.
Phil Tarrant: Okay.
Eric Wu: The value of it, I want to double it. Using different strategies and might apply into some small commission properties like shop fronts, and also some small developments as well. That's what I'm thinking. You want to talk about the long term. I'm dividing it into three stages. The first one is the accumulation stage, so you get into the market as soon as you can and make it as big as you can and collect as many as you can.
The next stage would be consolidate. It is really very rare that you're not going to make a single mistake at some stage. So when it comes to consolidation it's time to examine your portfolio. If any product does not perform, you sell down and it reduces debt. But the first stage and second stage will cross over each other for a period of time.
I would think the last stage would be debt reduction. Because you have to reduce debt anyway. That will be before or close to retirement or anytime you want to reduce work hours. At that time your income's reduced, you can sell down one at a time to pay minimal tax and also reduce your debt.
We really want to discuss the equity growth. Actually, I'm looking at the whole portfolio. If the portfolio is bigger, if it doubles, it has more equity then you gain.
Phil Tarrant: And how are you finding securing financing to double this portfolio in ten years’ time? Is it going to be hard to find the cash or get access to the borrowings to achieve that?
Eric Wu: I think there's potential, but I think month by month, nobody knows what's going to happen in a few years’ time. And also I would think of different ways to do that as well. You increase your present income and also you can increase in different ways. You can renovate to increase rental income or you can set a divider, build a granny flat, all that you can do to increase your rental return. Not only increase your borrowing power and also reduce your cash flow pressure as well.
Phil Tarrant: So, you said your strategy was buy, hold. So, buy, renovate and hold. Out of all of these properties in your portfolio, have you renovated all of them to some extent?
Eric Wu: No, we've renovated a few. But if I had the cash I would renovate all of them.
Phil Tarrant: Okay.
Eric Wu: And not only for the capital gains side, I would also provide better rental property for the tenants. So this reciprocal way if I provide better rental, I charge a fair price they would work on it probably as well. So it's kind of a mutual benefit. A win-win situation.
Phil Tarrant: How do you work out, then, which properties are worth renovating because obviously you renovate to either increase the capital value and you can extract that money through refinancing, or you renovate to increase the livability and rentability of the property and therefore increase your yield or you do it both. And both is the right idea to do it, so. When do you work out the right time to renovate a property to try and get greater value in it so you can increase your yield, you can increase your capital?
Eric Wu: Okay, let's start with how we look at the property. For me, I'm looking at the unmarked value of the property. So one thing on the market, it's hard to say whether or not but it depends on your research, if you follow the market for a total of three months, doing extensive research, so when you see a property you'll have an accurate estimation as well. And also I buy the price under the median. Let's say for example, the total price is $800,000. The bottom price is $400,000. I will buy under $600,000 or $500K for the property. Once you buy that, the basics are still there. The layout of the house is still there, so you can renovate to bring the house above the medium. At the same time, you try to build high rent.
Phil Tarrant: Can each one buy 40 per cent of then, the median?
Eric Wu: No, no. I think I confused you, sorry. So what I'm saying about under the median.
Phil Tarrant: Okay so if median's halfway, you try and buy just a little bit below that and try and push it just a little bit above the median through renovation. Through that, you increase the capital value of the property and you can realise that value through extracting the equity. And use that money elsewhere?
Eric Wu: And also the financial return.
Phil Tarrant: So, let's take, for example, your properties in Blacktown and the first one you bought was 295 now worth circa $700,000. Did you renovate that property? Has that been renovated?
Eric Wu: Yes I did. I renovated straight away because I was still living in it.
Phil Tarrant: Okay. And by renovating did you increase the rent by much, back then?
Eric Wu: Yes, I did. There's two ways of increasing. First off is the capital gain increase but that was on the back of a moving market so I can't figure out exactly how much moved. It's hard. And also the rental return did improve.
Phil Tarrant: Do you have like a metric saying for if I spend this much money, I expect to increase my rent by this much? Is there an algorithm or a metric you can use?
Eric Wu: No, I don't. It's really hard to predict. The rental return really depends on which street? What is the layout of the property and what is the condition of the places? And also how big are the bedrooms? It's hard to engage a number or formula.
Phil Tarrant: So, when you renovate a property, you do it for the purpose of both capital growth and also increasing the rental return-
Eric Wu: Yes.
Phil Tarrant: Which is the right way to go about it.
Eric Wu: Thank you.
Phil Tarrant: Have you ever got that wrong, do you think, where you've spent too much money on a renovation and potentially not extracted as much value as you could've from undertaking it?
Eric Wu: Yes, I did one. I did make a mistake with one of my Brisbane purchases. That was a mistake. At the time, which was 2015, at that time I bought one and it wasn't in good condition. I had a plan to renovate it and make it look a little better but at the same time, my son was born. It was impossible to go there to work on the project. So my property manager helped but I don't think the due diligence was not done properly. It ended up being a bit of trouble that I'm still fixing up.
Phil Tarrant: And when you've renovated places here in Sydney, how do you find the tradesmen to work on these? Are they people you know or you get different quotes coming in or what process do you use?
Eric Wu: The appointed primarily work on referrals. So I have friends that recommend builders to me. So I'll go have a talk with them, what kind of work they do and compare the quotes.
Phil Tarrant: And that's worked quite well in the city market's ... That's always gone very smoothly?
Eric Wu: For the city renovation I haven't gotten into major drama yet. That will be a major headache but it's not a major drama.
Phil Tarrant: How do you go about managing your properties? Do you have property managers in each of them that do the management for you?
Eric Wu: Yes I do. I think property managers are really important because I want to come back and think about why do I invest? Part of my goal was to create a better life for my family. It's not only for the future of enjoying the benefits, also I don't want the dream itself to manage all of the properties. I enjoy time at the same time and I also own the future as well so property manager's variable team member for my team because they manage the property and also give advice as well and also take counsel away from me.
Phil Tarrant: You don't want to be called up in the middle of the night saying my tap's leaking?
Eric Wu: Never.
Phil Tarrant: Which is good and do you pay the same amount in terms of percentage of management on all your properties or do they differ quite a lot?
Eric Wu: It varies. I find the very interesting phenomena is the small place taking more and more of the market shares than the big place.
Phil Tarrant: What do you think of that?
Eric Wu: I don't know, I think it's more the small places are more family friendly and personalised rather than streamlined, factory kind of work.
Phil Tarrant: I imagine that your management fees in Sydney are cheaper than what they are in Brisbane?
Eric Wu: You're a smart man. Yes.
Phil Tarrant: It's very different. The point is that in different state markets what you pay for management is very different. Look at our portfolio... Sydney versus Brisbane, we pay more up in Brisbane.
Eric Wu: Much more. I think it's roughly averaging 8.8 per cent.
Phil Tarrant: Yeah, it's quite high.
Eric Wu: Here it can vary from 5.5 to 6 per cent. But I can understand why because in Brisbane the rentals tend to be a bit lower to cover the ongoing costs-
Phil Tarrant: Doesn't matter if it's a million dollar property or a $400,000 property you still ... Stuff's breaking more often so, you know, it's a nightmare. That's a really interesting story, Eric. So, you're in the middle of this acquisition phase, then, of your property portfolio.
Eric Wu: I would think so.
Phil Tarrant: Where next are you buying? Any secrets for our listeners of the hot spots of tomorrow?
Eric Wu: I don't really believe in a hot spot, to be honest. I think if you buy at a fair price in a fair market, if you've got all the fundamentals right, if you don't buy in the peak market, it's okay. If you look at the three factors like I said before, the time of the market is really important, and also the size of the portfolio. As long as you don't buy in the peak, as long as you can hold onto the portfolio and as long as you have risk management strategies in place, you should be okay.
Phil Tarrant: And are you buying in the Brisbane market? Is that where you're targeting at the moment?
Eric Wu: Oh, I've stopped buying at this point in time. I just want to let the portfolio settle for a little bit and see how it goes and reassess what I can do next.
Phil Tarrant: Okay. And how will you go about deciding your next location, do you think?
Eric Wu: I will think I will normally buy in the metro capital cities because I think there's more population growth and job growth as well. There are more industries supporting capital cities. I'm not a big fan of regional. But some people do really well with regional. But for me, say if you buy in a regional city. Your rental returns have all the expenses. You might have given like $20 posted every week. Over years, that's $1,000. That's good. But if you break it down, your whole year's profit is gone. At the same time, you don't see much capital growth. What do you do with that?
Phil Tarrant: Well, you know when you look at the deal of eastern seaboards and the book end some of the comments made initially and I try and keep abreast of what all the different economists are saying about property markets and I guess the overall health of the economy and what the drive is going to be and as a nation right now we're shifting away from being very resources oriented to a services and innovation economy.
Our prime minister is trying to take us so where are people going to be moving to when they come to Australia. Organically, our population will grow and there's some pretty significant forecasts hit for population size increases in the years ahead based on organic growth but also onward migration to Australia and I can understand why a lot of people want to come and live in Australia. It's a great place to live and I think it's great that Australia as a nation is so welcoming for everyone to come into it, but, what it means is that these capital cities, particularly Brisbane and Melbourne, are going to be places which are going to have price pressure put onto it because is there enough housing in these places right now and the answer is, depending on who you speak to, is no.
A big hit on these houses, but, if more people want to live here what it means is that this price pressure, which means that probably prices are going to go up so, it's good to see, Eric, that you're finally in the game. Time in the market now is what the secret is.
These properties you have, you know, Hornsby, Blacktown, et cetera, to jump up and more than double in value even in the space of six to seven years is, will you continue that growth? I don't know, but I think they're going to keep going up in some way or another moving forward.
Eric Wu: Yeah, I think the continued kind of growth is kind of very difficult. As long as I can hold onto it for the next cycle I think the price will double as well so that's where the real wealth is. It's not about how much you can get in five or six years, you're looking for the long term.
Phil Tarrant: And your whole portfolio is positively geared?
Eric Wu: By pure rent and pure repayment yes it is. But if you catch ongoing expenses it's close to neutral or a tiny bit in the negative.
Phil Tarrant: We probably don't have too much time for this, but, what structure do you invest in? Do you invest in trusts or do you invest in individual names?
Eric Wu: Oh, well we have both; a combination.
Phil Tarrant: Okay, so why would you invest individually and why would you invest in a trust? Why would you choose to do it?
Eric Wu: When we started we didn’t think much about trust and then individual names are just easier. Then we talk about with the accountant and from other publications as well. It's kind of buying trust not only for tax benefit and also have asset protection so that's why we bought in trust. That was the primary reason.
Phil Tarrant: And, moving forward, you'll continue to buy within the trust?
Eric Wu: I'll assess that as well. I can't say whether 100 per cent trust or 100% per cent personal name-
Phil Tarrant: That's good, Eric, I've really enjoyed the chat and what you've achieved here is exemplary. I look at some of the assets that you have in your portfolio and they're very similar to the sort of stuff that I buy and we have a very similar strategy. We buy, renovate and hold. So we buy under market value properties and then we look to manufacture equity, and we do that through renovations so you get a double kicker. You're buying an under market value and then you're increasing the value through a cost-effective renovation to try and lift it up well above the median and hold onto it and extract that equity and keep going.
The formula's not difficult but you gotta work hard to make sure it happens so. Eric, keep in contact. Let us know how it's going. When you get ready, gear up and start buying again, it'll be nice to have another chat in a couple years' time-
Eric Wu: I sure will. Thanks, Phil. I really appreciate it.
Phil Tarrant: Keep listening, I always like feedback if people are enjoying the podcasts and I guess what we try and do here is share people's stories and everyone's story is different. I think a lot of people can learn from what you've shared with them today so thanks for being so open about how you've gone about doing it.
Eric Wu: Thank you. I want to say a final word to the listeners and also so they can learn from this as well. We as first generation migrants come here, we can do it, there's no reason others cannot and also you guys have actually more English than us, we can't speak English properly, so...
Phil Tarrant: I think you came out excellently and you know what? It hasn't stopped you from investing really well. So, keep at it. I think you made a really good point. Irrespective of whether you’re new to Australia or you're born and bred here. One of the great things about Australia is that the opportunities are open to everyone. You've just got to go out there and make a go of it. It's something that you've done.
Something I've seen all the property investors is that, number one, they're willing to give it a go. It's not always easy, it's often hard, and yes you're going to make mistakes along the way but it's all part of life. You learn and move on. And you try the next thing. So, words of wisdom from Eric so thank you. Just remember, our listeners, to check out SmartPropertyInvestment.com.au, we've got all this information, marketing, telling what's going on in property, this quality stuff up there about what interest rates might be doing prefaced by the conversation I had initially and also some of the marked dynamics of different parts. Check it out and have a look, if you've got any questions for me or anyone within the team, you can contact us [email protected] We're on all the social media profiles: Facebook, Twitter, LinkedIn just search Smart Property, you can follow me if you like on Twitter – @PhillipTarrant and see what I'm doing. I think that's pretty much it.
Keep those reviews coming in where we're doing well with them. We're way at the top of the charts. We're trying to push Teen Farris out of his number one slot. If you don't listen to him, I would suggest you do, he's quite interesting in terms of the way the world's working these days, let's push him off his number one position and take number one so Allen's giving me a smirk at the moment which is quite good. Thanks for joining us this week and we'll be back again next week. Until then, enjoy and I look forward to talking to you next time. Goodbye.