Brisbane property market update June 2022
It is not going to be a surprise to anyone that the Brisbane property market is starting to transition, following change...
Property investor and IT worker Lachlan Williams is joined by Phil Tarrant and shares how he went from owning no properties at all to four in the timeframe of less than a year and the challenges he faced along the way.
The investor reveals the watershed moment when he realised he wanted to start investing, the reasons why he started investing and where he hopes to be by the time he reaches 60.
Lachlan also talks about the time he spends working on his property portfolio, why he constantly watched his cash flow and why he needs to contain himself to buying more properties.
You will also find out the key strategies he implements for his portfolio, what he has learnt from this podcast and his thoughts on property managers.
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Announcer: Welcome to the Smart Property Investment Show with your host Phil Tarrant.
Phil Tarrant: Good day everyone. It's Phil Tarrant here. I'm the host of the Smart Property Investment Show. Thanks for joining us today. As I mentioned, if you've been turning in over the last couple of days or weeks we're smack bang in the middle of summer. A lot of people are on holidays. Hopefully you're not working, hopefully you're listening to this on a beach somewhere. That's where I plan to be spending some time over the Christmas period, but a bit of a theme that's come through the last few podcasts around what's happening in 2018, and you'll hear a little bit more of it, with different sentiments and observations around property markets across Australia and where people see the opportunities are, both investors, but also a lot of experts as well who do that sort of stuff for a living.
Our guest today is a property investor. As you know, and if you tune into the Smart Property Investment Show regularly, it's about story telling with property investors, and we do get the occasional property experts, so these are the heads of franchise groups, or data houses, or property buyers, buyer's agents, but by and large we like listening and hearing stories from investors, and it's something we can all learn from, myself included. I've said it beforehand, I get one of the best apprenticeships in property in Australia getting the opportunity to speak to property investors and experts from all walks of life. So today Lachlan Williams is in the studio. Lachlan's going to have a chat about how he went from zero to four properties in less than a year. Lachlan, how are you going?
Lachlan Williams: Very good thanks, Phil.
Phil Tarrant: So why did you go from zero to four properties in less than a year? What happened?
Lachlan Williams: I've been trying to catch up, is the short answer to that question. I've sort of been thinking about investing in property for a little while, but procrastinated and spoke to a few people and thought about it, but got a bit lazy and then I finally bit the bullet this year and pulled some equity out of the home and just went as hard as I could as fast as I could.
Phil Tarrant: So what was the sort of watershed moment were you in? "That's it, I've got to start doing something." Is it really clear? Or is it something that just bubbled away over time?
Lachlan Williams: Yeah, there was. Look, there were a few of them. I met a few colleagues at work that were into property investment, and they'd talk about they'd got this many properties, and it seemed almost impossible to believe that they'd done so well so quickly. I had a guide speak to me and give me a bit of a rundown on how to do it, how to do the research yourself, where to go and get the data and all of that sort of thing. I started to do that, but too hard. Then I met some guys who were working with Right Property Group as buyers agents, and they sort of talked me through the strategy, and it just clicked. I thought, "This just makes sense and I can do this. I can pull some money out of the home, get some equity and bang, away we go."
Phil Tarrant: So by catch up, do you mean, do you feel as though you should have invested in property when you were younger?
Lachlan Williams: Absolutely. Well, there's two parts to that. I've actually been a property investor about 20 years ago for a very brief period of time. So I had enough money to buy a unit when I was in my 20s, bought the unit, moved into it soon after that, and that gave me a bit of a headstart in life. I sold the unit, got a townhouse, sold the townhouse, bought a house. Kind of following the path of having a family, having kids, following that path, but before you know it, 20 odd years have gone by and I haven't invested in property. So I thought it's time to do it, my super's not going to get me by when I retire, so now or never.
Phil Tarrant: There you go. So this is a wealth creation, retirement play for you?
Lachlan Williams: Absolutely.
Phil Tarrant: Okay. So how old are you? So you're 40 something, right?
Lachlan Williams: Yeah, 47.
Phil Tarrant: 47, okay. What sort of work do you do?
Lachlan Williams: I work in one of the major banks in IT.
Phil Tarrant: Okay, cool. So I imagine you get a reasonable salary.
Lachlan Williams: Salary's not too bad, yeah.
Phil Tarrant: Yeah. So this is a wealth creation strategy, so at a point in time when you choose not to work, I don't know when that is, it's a different time for different people, but the government wants us to work longer, so it'll be up into our 70s. I hope to be working when I'm 70, but choose to work. This is a play about providing you with an income so you're not relying solely on your superannuation to have a nice lifestyle?
Lachlan Williams: Exactly. Passive income to ... And hopefully ... I've sort of picked a number. I've said by the time I'm 60, I'd like to be earning roughly the same sort of salary that I'm earning now, maybe more, and that was the thing I liked about the strategy that I got with the Right Property Group, it starts with that and you work backwards from there, and you have an investment strategy that sort of follows that path. We'll see how we go.
Phil Tarrant: Just for our listeners, if you don't know about who I use as a buyer's agent is Right Property Group as well, so that's interesting, there you go. Full disclosure, that's why I like the role. They're good operators and I do a podcast with ... You work with Victor, do you?
Lachlan Williams: Yep.
Phil Tarrant: Yeah, with Victor Kumar and Steve Waters called Investing Insights of The Right Property Group. So that's where we really dig down into a lot of the sort of more complex and complicated factors of property investment, unlike the Smart Property Investment Show; we just talk to investors about investing in property, but anyway, I digress. So for you to replace your income at 60, so you've got 15 years or so to work. How large, or what's the value of your property portfolio with no debt in it? Do you know what that needs to be in order to give you a number that you need?
Lachlan Williams: Yeah, I think it's in the order of 12 to 15 properties, and those properties I'm talking 300k type properties. So it's more about the value of the portfolio. Rough calculation says that it's roughly between 10 and 15 mil of property value by then. There's not a lot of time to do that. I think a lot of people when they're starting out with that sort of a strategy, they might have 20, 25 years in which to do that.
Phil Tarrant: Yeah, a couple of property market cycles, yeah.
Lachlan Williams: Yeah, so I've got a real challenge ahead of me to try and get all the debt down from those properties in that short amount of time, and of course that coupled with the fact that at the time that I started, having spoken to these guys at work who've done it and they've gone through the Sydney boom and all the great stuff in the western suburbs that sort of propelled them forward. I've just come in at the time when interest rates are starting to go back up, the banks are tightening their lending, it's all getting a little bit more and more interesting.
Phil Tarrant: Yeah, you know, markets are always different. I was fortunate to get a period of time in the Sydney market as a boom through the western suburbs of Sydney and I speak a lot about it on the show, it was fortunate, but timing is one thing. Good advice, good strategy is another thing. Are we going to see that again at any point in time? I don't know. I've been investing a fair bit up in Brissy. I imagine you've been up there a fair bit as well. Let's have a chat about that. What sort of assets are you buying?
Lachlan Williams: At the moment, I've got four properties. They're all three bedroom houses and they're all in Logan. I was hoping to diversify a little bit more than that, but at the same time, that seems to be where the action is right now. All four purchases were pretty good. I managed to get them rented out pretty quickly. Except for one, I had to do a bit of work to get it up to scratch. Rental yields are not too bad. I think, I get the impression Logan's slowing down a little bit in terms of the rental yield, but for the next ones, I've got some plans in 2018 to do some more. I'm going to try and diversify beyond that, but right now they're all in the Logan area. So I've got one in Waterford West, one in Eagleby, one in Crestmead, one in Slacks Creek.
Phil Tarrant: Okay.
Lachlan Williams: The one in Slacks Creek was an interesting one. It came along very rapidly because one of the colleagues at work that inspired me to get into this actually also works with Victor and he owns the property next door. So when this one came up, they offered it to him, but he wasn't in a position to buy at the time, so he said to Victor, "Give it to someone I know." So they offered it to me. I was sort of almost not quite financially ready, but I just jumped in and there we are.
Phil Tarrant: Yeah. Well maybe you can stick them together at some point and do something with it.
Lachlan Williams: That's the plan.
Phil Tarrant: You never know.
Lachlan Williams: Yeah.
Phil Tarrant: That's cool. So how much time do you spend working on your property investment portfolio now? Is it quite a full on thing? Or is it a-
Lachlan Williams: It was at first. The first property came in March, then the next one in May, and then two in June, so those are the dates they settled. So between March and probably August, it felt like I had a second job. I was going home at night and doing hours worth of stuff, but right now it's not a lot, maybe half an hour a week. Once a month the statement comes in. I'll plug the numbers into the spreadsheet that I've spent six months perfecting, and yeah. Doesn't take a lot of time at all.
Phil Tarrant: And married? Kids? All this sort of stuff?
Lachlan Williams: Married with three kids.
Phil Tarrant: Yeah? And your wife? Is she sort of side by side with you and head in the books and in the numbers? Or is she like, "That sounds cool, go for it."
Lachlan Williams: She's supportive and she understands the strategy. It took me a little bit to convince her. I took her out to one of Steve and Victor's seminars out at The Rydges there, and it was good actually, the first one of 2017, and they were actually replaying the overall strategy, which I'd just been through, and it just clicked with her in exactly the same way that it did with me. She went, "That makes sense." They were showcasing some of the success stories of some of their clients who've got 18, 19 properties in less than a decade, and she just came out of it going, "Wow." So she's fully onboard, but I'm doing the work.
Phil Tarrant: You're doing the work?
Lachlan Williams: Yeah.
Phil Tarrant: And as a couple, it's sort of clicked, and you must be quite satisfied that you've been able to take so much action in the space of less than a year from sort of a year prior to where you are today, it's a very different circumstances.
Lachlan Williams: Yeah, it's exciting and I spoke before about how I was doing lots of work when those first four properties were getting bedded in and now it's a bit quiet. I'm getting the itch, I need to get another one.
Phil Tarrant: You want to go again?
Lachlan Williams: Yeah.
Phil Tarrant: How has your sort of ... You touched on it beforehand, lending is getting a little bit more difficult these days. Do you still have more capacity to borrow? Is that going to be a problem? When will that become a problem?
Lachlan Williams: I've got another property that's in the works ready to go soon, so I've been having the preapproval conversations, and the answer to your question is yes, but not with the major lenders.
Phil Tarrant: Okay.
Lachlan Williams: The major lenders look at my serviceability very differently, and in fact, it's almost a joke the way they do it, I think, because they look at loans that I'm paying five percent interest only and they assess those at seven and a half principal and interest and they just go, "No, no more for you," but there's other lenders like Peppers that will happily lend me some money.
Phil Tarrant: Yeah, and you say you work for a bank?
Lachlan Williams: Yep.
Phil Tarrant: Did you finance through that bank? Did you get any special deals as staff?
Lachlan Williams: Yeah, some discount on interest rates, although that seems to just get it back down to what's a normal interest rate because I think they're charging more than the others. LMI is discounted with the bank, so that worked well, and I've got three of the properties that would have cost me LMI, LVR of 90 on two of them and 88 on one of them. I would have had an LVR of 90 on the fourth one, except that they didn't like that postcode at the time, so they said no.
Phil Tarrant: That's pretty cool, so you've been ... These LMI discounts, so we're talking about lender's mortgage insurance. So if you finance over 80%, you've got to pay lender's mortgage insurance, which insures the lender that should you default that they can potentially get some money back. So that's pretty cool. So as a staff incentive, your employer gives you a discount on LMI?
Lachlan Williams: Yeah, so that wasn't too bad, but I'm maxed out now with them, so I'm looking at, and even talking with the mortgage broker, the other major banks seem to have the same sort of lending policies at the moment. So it looks like the next one or two properties will be with a smaller lender.
Phil Tarrant: Yeah, and that's a good strategy, diversify your lender base and different lenders have different serviceability requirements and different ways they view stuff, as you mentioned. So it's good to be able to know there's other alternatives out there, but all investors at some point in time will be sort of tapped on the shoulder to say, "No more for you for a little while," but lending policies change all the time. Banks are businesses, and banks like lending money, so they've got certain rules and requirements they need to operate within because of APRA lending guidelines, but you never know what might happen next year. They might go even tighter, they might loosen a little bit. I've had a mortgage broker on the podcast quite recently sort of hinting that maybe he's seen a slight sort of lessening in some of these policies, but we'll see how we go next year with all of that sort of stuff.
Lachlan Williams: Yeah, I need to keep reminding myself I've only been doing this for about nine months.
Phil Tarrant: I know.
Lachlan Williams: I haven't seen the cycles and all of that sort of thing.
Phil Tarrant: No, and lending is a headache, right? A loan is a ... You don't want a mortgage. I don't want mortgages, but I need one in order to purchase property. So yeah, to try and be fluid with your financing and think about how you can think of alternatives, but no, that sounds really cool. What's, outside of the wealth creation perspective, the end goal? Why do you like investing in property? Is there anything else that you get a buzz out of?
Lachlan Williams: Yeah, it's an interesting question. I didn't think I would. I didn't go into it thinking this'd be fun or this'd be interesting. I just thought, "I need to do this to create some wealth," but it has been fun. It's actually been really interesting. I love the learning aspect of it. I love listening to this podcast and there's a couple of other podcasts, and the thing that's really good for me about that is that people are saying the same things that all make sense. They talk about the fundamentals, and they talk about the strategy, and they talk about cashflow and they're saying even phrases like, "Markets within markets," I just hear it so often. It's almost like there's this tight group of people that are property investors and that's just the language they speak. So it all feels like I'm doing the right things. What I need to keep reminding myself of is that I'm not an expert. I'm not experienced at this and I need to have the right people around me. I've connected with people like Munzurul who I sort of found my way to through Victor and through-
Phil Tarrant: As your accountant?
Lachlan Williams: This podcast. Yep.
Phil Tarrant: He's my accountant as well, there you go.
Lachlan Williams: Yep. Ross Le Quesne is-
Phil Tarrant: Broker, yeah. High broker, yeah.
Lachlan Williams: So I hear these names and I go, "Okay, I'll talk to these people. They obviously know what they're doing," but apart from anything else, I've got to really watch the cashflow situation. I've got to remember that I've got a family to feed and I've still got other bills to pay and I've got to keep working to sustain this. So the excitement to go that fast has got to be tempered with a little bit of caution.
Phil Tarrant: Yeah, four properties in less than a year is pretty ambitious. It's all in, right? You haven't done a tax return yet, have you? You would have done-
Lachlan Williams: Yeah, I did.
Phil Tarrant: Your first one. So I guess two properties or so. A lot of people make the mistake of investing in property for a tax minimization strategy and you hear it all the time and you go, "negative gearing is not for strategy, it's an outcome," but I guess someone like yourself who is a salaried employee, there would be benefits when it comes to negative gearing at a point in time when you do your tax return. So I imagine that's an upside benefit, but it's not the reason why you're doing this.
Lachlan Williams: Definitely not the reason, and one of the first things that Victor impressed upon me was that you do not factor that in when you do the sums, and lo and behold a couple of months later, the Federal Government made a couple of interesting tweaks to the tax return situation there and who knows where that could lead. So I'm definitely not including that in the equation, but it's a bonus.
Phil Tarrant: Yeah, it is a bonus.
Lachlan Williams: I don't know what that'll look like next year. The tax return this year probably wasn't a good indication because there was only a couple of months and a few expenses, but yeah, I guess it all helps.
Phil Tarrant: So is the portfolio before tax, where does it hover? Is it negative? Is it really negative?
Lachlan Williams: It's negative. The rental yields I think are good. So if you compared the rental yields with Sydney or Melbourne, they're definitely better in Brisbane, but I've got to chip in a fair bit, but that was one of the things that I looked at before I got into it was, I've got a little bit of surplus income and I'm one of those people that I'm sensible with my savings if I've got a specific goal to save towards. Otherwise I'll just spend everything I've got. That's fine, we're comfortable, but I thought, "Okay, if I can set myself up in property and I can sustain a little bit of negative gearing." I'm probably at the point now where I can't take too much more without a lifestyle hit, and that's challenging as well because one of the things I wanted to do was to try and put a granny flat on one of them to neutralise the cashflow. Of course, you need to borrow that money from the same lender that the main property is on, and they've said no.
Phil Tarrant: Okay.
Lachlan Williams: So in order to put the granny flat on that property, I'm probably going to have refire that with another institution.
Phil Tarrant: Okay, and pull some money out and top up the loan, yeah. So there's quite a lot of moving parts there. So how many properties next year do you reckon? What do you think is sort of reasonable? Talk about numbers of properties, and you shouldn't be talking about numbers of properties, you should be talking about value of properties, but let's talk tangible things.
Lachlan Williams: So I've started doing a plan for next year. There's a couple of things that are going to happen next year, which will help, and I'll say this with the assumption that I can get finance, I actually don't know if I can. One is that I'm going to convert my superannuation into a self managed super fund. I think there's enough in there, depending on the value of the property, to get at least two, maybe three if they're small type property value, but two is enough. So two there. Probably another maybe up to three more. So potentially five next year, all subject to whether I can get the finance right.
Phil Tarrant: Yeah, and you have enough fat, i.e., surplus cash every single month to service. So you would know what number you have as in, this is what I can tip into a property portfolio every single month without really impacting your lifestyle too much.
Lachlan Williams: I do know roughly what that is, and there's a little bit of buffer there because one of the things I've taught myself to do over the years is, I know for example I'm going to take the family on a nice holiday every year to Fiji or to Bali, or something like that. Typically what people will do is that they'll go on that holiday and then pay it off. I don't like to do that. I know I'm going to have that holiday, so I actually like to-
Phil Tarrant: Pay it forward.
Lachlan Williams: Skim some salary off and pile up the savings, so I've been doing that for a long time.
Phil Tarrant: Good.
Lachlan Williams: Even things like, I'm going to get a new iPhone every two years. I'm going to get a new computer every four years. They're known expenses and I can plan for them. So there's some buffer in there with the cash flow that I could potentially work with, but the other challenge for me is that these properties that I've got, even though they're reasonably settled in now, I don't think they've quite reached equilibrium. There's all of those sort of fluctuating costs, like you get the vacancy at the start, you've got some repairs. So I don't quite know where the cashflow for them is yet.
Phil Tarrant: Yeah.
Lachlan Williams: So I need to ... Maybe I just need to let that stabilise for a while, and then I can know how much further I can go, but the properties next year, I think, need to be probably a little bit closer to neutral. The ones that I've got are really growth assets and so-
Phil Tarrant: But you know, you're establishing a portfolio right now. This is in an acquisition phase. You're looking to accumulate the assets so then you can, at a point in time, say, "Stop," and then time should sort itself out. As long as you're buying properties that are going up in value. That's the key thing.
Lachlan Williams: One of the things that I've learned from listening to this podcast, I've heard it so many times, you often ask people if you could go back in time to your younger self what would you tell yourself? And the number of times that I hear the person say, "Buy more earlier." So I'm really trying to just go as hard as I can.
Phil Tarrant: Yeah. The benefit of hindsight is a beautiful thing. I think back on my portfolio and I could have bought a lot more when I did, but maybe something would have happened. So if your biggest regret is not doing enough of something, it's not a bad thing. If your biggest regret is, "I wish I didn't buy that because it absolutely crippled me," that's a bad one. So it's a nice thing to have, but you're not messing around. That's not a bad way to ... How are you managing these properties? You just got them with a property manager?
Lachlan Williams: Yeah, they're all, because they're close enough together, they're all with the one property manager right now. I've been through a couple of other property managers on the way to that, that were not really doing what I needed them to do, and I learnt fairly quickly that you don't mess around with that. If they're not up to scratch, you just boot them, and I found a good one, so that's working out well.
Phil Tarrant: Yeah, and you mentioned you sort of listened to this podcast and some other ones. Why do you sort of do that? Is there any ... Do you just like hearing the stories? What do you take out of these type of things?
Lachlan Williams: I like hearing the stories, but it's education. Every so often I'll just hear an interesting new thing that I didn't know, which is probably important to know. I went out to a few of the seminars that Steve and Victor put on and just listened to the stories there and just pick up tips. For me, it's all about building the experience and learning how other people have done things. I like hearing the stories when people have made mistakes, I think that's a really valuable thing to listen to.
Phil Tarrant: A lot of people try and cover up their mistakes though. Did you ever listen to this podcast or anything else and just go, "That sounds a bit like bull crap. That sounds ... I don't really believe it too much?" Or you reckon most people are pretty straight up and down when it comes to ... We try and sort of filter people onto the show so they tell good stories.
Lachlan Williams: Yeah. Most people seem genuine. The classic mistake that I hear everyone talking about is buying off the plan.
Phil Tarrant: Yeah.
Lachlan Williams: Everyone ... I haven't heard a single buy off the plan story that's anything other than disastrous, to be honest. So things like that are valuable. The challenge that I've got to work with is that I've not got a lot of time before that sort of retirement finish line that I want to work to, and I can't really afford, in that short time frame, to make any big mistakes because I won't have the time to recover from them.
Phil Tarrant: Yeah, but you can mitigate a lot of those by good education, right? And if you see something coming, hopefully you don't make the wrong decisions and therefore end up with mistakes. That's the idea. You said you're in IT right?
Lachlan Williams: Yeah.
Phil Tarrant: You've always been an IT man?
Lachlan Williams: Yeah, pretty much.
Phil Tarrant: Yeah. Do you think that sort of has shaped the way in which you invest in property, and I say this on the basis of, you know, I chat to different investors from all different walks of life. Engineers are wired a particular way, sales people are wired a particular way, and I know, we've got a lot of IT, tech people in our business, and they're wired a particular way. Do you think in property there's some way you might be thinking about lines of code or workflow stuff through ... You know what I mean? Are you a very linear type of investor? Or are you sort of ... Like, if I looked up inside your head, would it just be this complicated web of things going all over the joint?
Lachlan Williams: I have no idea what you'd find inside my head, Phil. I'm a very logical kind of thinker.
Phil Tarrant: Logical, yeah.
Lachlan Williams: Very structured sort of thinker, and I've poured my heart and soul into a spreadsheet to help me manage these properties. I think it's actually really useful, but I also recognise that that spreadsheet would probably send anyone else who tried to use it somewhat insane because it's very complicated, but I don't think it's affected my investment strategy because my investment strategy is somewhat guided by other people. As I said, I've literally been kicked into this with the inspiration of a couple of guys. I heard them talking one day about their property and I said, "I've got to find out what's going on here." So for the price of a couple of beers, they told me how it worked for them. I thought that makes sense. I spoke to Victor, Victor talked me through it, it made even more sense, and so I've just kind of been guided there. It's obviously my decision at the end of the day. Victor's not sort of holding my hand and making decisions for me, but I'm getting that guidance on what makes sense. I'm getting the education from talking to people around me and listening to podcasts and things like that.
So I guess the logical mindset has helped me work through how I'll use the expertise of others to get through this, but there's a lot that I can't see. I can't see my own way through to that ultimate end state where the wealth is coming in. I get the strategy, and I get the steps that you take to get there, but right now with negative cashflow, the sort of stale rental market, and the lending restrictions, I'm looking at this going, "I can't see how this is going to take off," and I know that it will, I need to just kind of have some faith in the process and the markets.
Phil Tarrant: It's a really healthy way to look at it, and to your point around what your buyer's agent says, you just don't do everything he tells you, you still challenge that. I think that's a really important way to do it. A lot of people make the mistake of thinking, "Yes I want to invest in property, yes I'm going to pay the experts and I'm not going to take any responsibility in my decisions because they're going to make all the decisions." If you go down that path, you're going to end yourself up in a bit of trouble.
If someone says to you, "I'm a buyer's agent. You don't have to worry about it, just do exactly everything I say." I'd probably put a red flag up, and I know the guys at Right Property Group, I know them well, and some other very good buyer's agents will say the same thing, they'll say, "I expect you to challenge me when I put properties in front of you." They want to be asked the questions why, how, who, when, where, what are we going to do with it? What's the longterm play? What's the upside play? You need to be asking these questions, so you've got the right attitude with it. You can't outsource responsibility.
Lachlan Williams: It's ultimately my money and my responsibility.
Phil Tarrant: Yeah, and you've got to choose your advisors right and you hope they've got your best interests at heart, but not all advice is created equal, so be careful of some people out there.
Lachlan Williams: Most people I come across are actually really-
Phil Tarrant: Pretty good, yeah.
Lachlan Williams: Genuine and generous with their advice, and they're willing to share their stories and talk about their mistakes. So I think that's good.
Phil Tarrant: Yeah, that's good Lachlan. So in a year's time when you're back on the show, what are you going to tell me?
Lachlan Williams: Hopefully I'm telling you that I've got another four or five under the belt and the cashflow is still manageable and it's okay, and planning for maybe the next four or five after that.
Phil Tarrant: Okay. Alright, put the pedal down, seems to be working for you. Thanks for coming on the show.
Lachlan Williams: Thank you.
Phil Tarrant: It's a good one. Remember to check out smartpropertyinvestment.com.au. If you aren't yet subscribing to our daily morning market intelligence newsletter, please do. Be the first to know what's going on, smartpropertyinvestment.com.au/subscribe. Put your email address in there and we'll make sure we get you on the list. If you'd like to get your info from social media, search Smart Property HQ, you'll track us down. Any questions for me, for Lachlan, or anything we're chatting about on the podcast today, you can email the team editor at smartpropertyinvestment.com.au, and if you want to come on the show, email at the same email. Lachlan, it's pretty good isn't it? It's not too daunting coming on here, having a chat?
Lachlan Williams: Not daunting.
Phil Tarrant: No, good. Alright, there we go. Good advocate here. Thanks for joining us today, we'll be back here next time. Until then, bye bye.
Announcer: The information featured in this podcast is general in nature and does not take into consideration your financial situation or individual needs and should not be relied upon. Before making any investment, insurance, tax, property, or financial planning decision, you should consult a licenced professional who can advise whether your decision is appropriate for you. Guests appearing on this podcast may have a commercial relationship with the companies mentioned.